I wonder if he said that because they're terrible children, or he underestimated how much they cost to raise. Given that he said he wanted to marry off Anatole (who costs 40,000 rubles year!) to a rich family I think it's the latter.
I think it's a bit of both. He went out of his way to mention that Ippolit (elder son) isn't trouble, but Anatole (younger son) is. This could be referring to Anatole simply using more of his father's money than Ippolit, but I have a feeling it also has to do with Anatole getting into more "wacky hijinks" than Ippolit.
Yeah, I feel like this is still an issue 300 years later again. In any large, rich family, there’s usually one kid who just burns through his trust fund like an idiot.
Ah I see. I didn't see Anatole as a troublemaker, more as a kid with special needs.
they sound like fun
I read that and I was like ooh what kind of crazy shit are they going to get up to
This was one of my favourite lines out of chapter 1 for me
Reading this the second time through, this line popped out at me and made me laugh out loud at work this morning.
I'd like to just say something to all the newbies from someone who completed this back in 2020. You're in for a long and at times not always pleasant ride and you're not always gonna be able to read a chapter a day, don't get bent out of shape. Everyone reads at their own pace, and we're happy to see you around whenever you're caught up with us. I hope everyone has a great time reading this year as this is my favorite novel, and just know that this novel is 100% worth it. Good luck! :)
I’ll second this… it’s a long, strange process for everywhere. Just check in when you can. If you fall behind, try to catch up. Usually chapters are really short.
Hope every participates. I’m going back to full participant. Wanna fully re-read as a reader only this year!
Than you for this encouragement! I have sat here sure, contemplating this commitment but your words have convinced me to start
Ok, haven't a clue what's going on or where this is going to go (so many names). But the Dialogue and characters are pretty cool and I like that Anna is such a strong and intelligent female character.
Also you guys weren't kidding about the opening sentence lmao, that whole opening paragraph is yikes.
Oh hey, I can help! I'll translate that first paragraph into my native tongue: Bogan Australian.
Bloody hell, Prince Vasily, Genoa and Luca are pretty much just Napoleon's holiday homes now... I'm warning you mate, if you still reckon Napoleon is an alright bloke - if you still don't reckon this means he wants a fight - if you try to defend that mad bastard, who I reckon is pretty much the devil... Well, then you can bugger off, you're not my mate any more. But, oi, come in, come in, I'm just messin' with ya mate. Sit down, ya dickhead. How the f*ck are ya, anyway?
I love this! Can you translate the whole book?
Yeah, sure! Shouldn't take too long...
It's like the Shakespearean versions of Star Wars I keep seeing at the book store!
I need this. Link??
My thought exactly.
Seriously, though...I could see this selling like hotcakes.
I feel like I understood this translation more than the actual paragraph
I definitely did, and English is not my first language. (I'm reading the book in Spanish).
Love this
Fellow Melbournian - can you attest to the accuracy of my translation? (Do you speak bogan?)
Yeah mate, it’s bang on!
Brilliant. I should make a Queens, New York translation. Love it.
Ah, a fellow Queensite!
Astoria. You?
Flushing
Do it!
Ok this is the only translation I want to read from here on out.
This was amazing. I'd read a Bogan Australian version. I hope you can participate here frequently and add occasional translated paragraphs here and there.
I love this, thank you!
thank you I feel less silly now. I am quite a bit hungover and didn't really grasp a lot of that first chapter
This is going to be a LONG year for me... I am not used to reading such intellectual books. But these discussion threads are going to help big time.
Yeah, some of the writing is a bit hard to decipher, but it's so helpful to be able to come to this community and essentially get the cliff notes. By the end of the year I get the feeling we will all have grown substantially as comprehensive readers.
Totally agree. I read the same paragraphs four or five times trying to find some sort of meaning. I think this will be an interesting challenge!
I’m glad I’m not the only one who had to read some passages several times. This is going to be a great learning experience!
I’m just commenting here because I’ll be following along all year, but I’ll be lurking and not posting. This is just my promise that I am participating.
Same here for the most part. I'm sure I'll comment occasionally, but for a majority of the time I'll most likely just be reading the comments w/out commenting myself.
I will say the first chapter was a lot more interesting than I was expecting. I enjoyed the interactions between Lady Pavlovna and Prince Vassily.
Likewise, mostly just popping in this thread to say hi. Encouraged by how much conversation there is here, I was a little worried that because it was the second year there'd be fewer people but it looks like conversation is booming!
Same for me!
Same! I'll probably comment if I feel especially strongly about something, but I'm generally content to lurk.
Me too!
Same! But since a lot of people here will probably have the same doubts and questions as me I don't think I will have to post a lot anyways
Some thoughts:
“Heavens! what a virulent attack!” replied the prince, not in the least disconcerted by this reception.
I kind of love this Vasili character so far. Tolstoy's narration continually makes him sound like he doesn't give a f*ck, even as the literal words of his dialogue would seem to indicate otherwise. It's like all of his words and behavior are just him going through the motions, "like a wound-up clock," when really he's just tired of all this court nonsense.
“Can one be well while suffering morally? Can one be calm in times like these if one has any feeling?”
Seems like this could be taken as a pretty direct statement of theme or "central" problem.
"...I confess all these festivities and fireworks are becoming wearisome.”
Feel like Tolstoy's poking some fun at Russian aristocrats in this scene.
To be an enthusiast had become her social vocation and, sometimes even when she did not feel like it, she became enthusiastic in order not to disappoint the expectations of those who knew her.
Seems like Tolstoy's characterizing both of our introductory characters here as inauthentic.
Not sure what to make of Pavlovana's little speech, especially the nationalistic sentiments within. Also, at the beginning, she says the "one thing" she has faith in is the Russian monarch, but at the end she says she has faith in God and the monarch. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I wonder if this apparent inconsistency is meaningful.
Just to maybe add some context to that last inconsistancy you mentioned: More often than not the Russian Emperor was synonymous with god, especially in that context. Imperial Russia was seen as the last bastion of the true Orthodox Christian faith, and the Tsar in keeping with Byzantine tradition as the vice-regent of god on earth. You can almost think of the figure of the Emperor as the Pope and King in one, when it comes to these matters.
Or maybe we are just both reading way to much into it!
It felt a lot similar to "the donald" community calling their leader a GEOTUS (God Emperor of the US) and talks about Russia being great was easily one with MAGA theme.
Anna seems like a charismatic political socialite who is a Nationalist. Much like the elite of the Republican Party. (like the Bush Family)
p.s. kindly let me know if this type of comparison is not allowed.
Mmm! That makes sense, and seems to clear things up a lot for me. Thank you!
So I also loved this first chapter and grasped most of it. Except for one part. The line which describes Anna's enthusiasm.
The line " The discreet smile that continually played over her face and was incongruous with her faded features revealed, as in a spoiled child, a constant awareness of the charming defect she neither wished nor could nor even found necessary to correct."
What is the charming defect? What does that last part mean. Neither wished nor could nor found necessary to correct.
I am reading a translation by Ann Dunnigan
My translation says this:
Being an enthusiast had become her social position, and she sometimes became enthusiastic even when she had no wish to, so as not to deceive the expectations of people who knew her. The restrained smile that constantly played on Anna Pavlovna's face, though it did not suit her outworn features, expressed, as it does in spoiled children, a constant awareness of her dear shortcoming, which she did not wish, could not, and found no need to correct.
I think the defect is that she fakes enthusiasm even when she doesn't want to. Possibly not very well.
Nice observation, i just want to clear one thing : Pavlovna is a patronym, so to speak of somebody, you should include first name too! Cheers
“I love all my children equally!”
“I don’t care for GOB.”
Also, hello, all! I’m an alumnus from last year’s Les Miserables read-along :)
Your answer to question #1 is spot-on... ""My first instinct is that she's a relatively harmless busy-body but she's too well-connected and too involved...to be be truly harmless" Ahhhhh, that's good stuff there.
I loved jumping right into their lives. Despite them being high society, it seemed like conversation many people could relate to.- come hang out with me while I'm sick
- oh well, I can only stay a bit, I'm expected to be at this other party
- bitch about politics a bit
- bitch about the kids a bit
- maybe get your kid married off, that might help
- yeah, help me out with that, will ya?
All while knowing the other one is scheming on the side some.
Looking forward to see what happens next! (and also meeting the deadbeat kids)
Other thoughts: it makes me want to learn French this year along with reading through. It also makes me want to spoil the war for myself and delve into what exactly happens, but I'm going to restrain myself - not big on my knowledge of history.
Favorite line: " He spoke that refined French in which our grandparents not only spoke but thought.."
I second this, I liked getting right into it so quickly. I didn’t know what I was expecting, but it wasn’t how quickly the dialogue happened.
This is great. Wish you’d summarize each chapter like this :))
I've been learning French and am loving the chance to stretch a bit and learn new words. You should go for it. I use DuoLingo (cause it's free) but I think any way you choose will work fine.
Just wanted to say that ever since someone started this subreddit the New Year and a new cycle of reading War and Peace has become one of my favorite parts of the year.
Have fun everyone. Can’t wait to see what you have to say.
Happy reading this year, y'all :)
“Why has fate given you two such nice children (excluding Anatole, your youngest, I don’t like him)”.
"What would you have me do?" "You know I did all a father could for their education, and they have both turned out des imbeciles ."
:-)
"Hippolyte is at least a quiet fool, but Anatole is an active one. That is the only difference between them." The whole conversation about children is absolutely amazing. My favorite is "La pauvre petite est malheureuse comme les pierres" - "The poor girl is unhappy like stones".
I decided to read this book this year because I'm a fan of the musical 'Natasha, Pierre, and the Great Comet of 1812'. Since I'm already a little familiar with Anatole as a character, this line was extra funny to me
Three posts down, and I've already found a rabbit hole to fall into.
Same! I keep hearing the intro song in my head as characters show up. 😊
For those curious how the Ander Louis "Aussie Slang" version compares, here is the full first chapter.
If you like it, book 1 is available now on Amazon .
My goal for 2021 is to finish this translation, so I will be working on it every day. If you want to hang out and talk books, I'll be streaming my progress via the Launch Pad Writers Club YouTube .
Chapter 1
Bloody hell, Prince Vasili, Genoa and Lucca are pretty much just Napoleon's holiday homes now... I'm warning you, if you still reckon Napoleon is an alright bloke - if you still don't reckon this means he wants a fight - if you try to defend that mad bastard, who I reckon is pretty much the devil... Well, then you can bugger off, we’re not mates any more. But, oi, come in, come in, I'm just messin with ya mate. Sit down. How are ya, anyway?
It was July 18th, and it was the well-known Anna Pavlovna Scherer speaking – maid of honour and favourite of the Empress Marya Fedorovna. The fellow she was talking to was Prince Vasili – who was a pretty big deal, rank-wise. He was the first to rock up at her soiree. Anna Pavlovna had been crook for a few days, suffering from ‘Le Grippe,’ as she called it – because grippe was a new fandangled word in St Petersburg, and she was trying to be as posh as possible.
She’d written all the invitations in French (again – to be posh) and had them delivered by footmen in fancy scarlet uniforms that morning. They read:
‘If you’ve got nothin else to do, Count (or Prince), and if you don’t mind hanging out with someone who’s on the way out, I’d be happy to see you tonight between 7 and 10. - Annette Scherer’
‘Jesus, go easy, mate,’ replied the prince, though he wasn’t actually bothered by her attack. He had just entered, wearing an embroidered court uniform, knee-breeches and shoes, and stars on his breast. Already he looked kind of bored. He spoke in that refined French that our grandfathers not only spoke, but thought in, and with the gentle, patronizing intonation natural to an important man who’d grown old in society and at court. He approached Anna, took her hand and gave it a kiss – she smelled the scented polish from his bald head as he did – and then moved to the sofa and took a seat.
‘Alright, let’s have it. Are you good? You said you were sick, I was worried about ya,’ he said, without bothering to change his tone to actually sound concerned.
‘Well how good could I be, anyway, suffering morally as I am… No one could feel good at a time like this, unless they were an absolute psycho,’ said Anna. ‘You’re gonna stay till ten, aren’t ya?’
‘Nah, my daughter’s coming to get me in a bit, we’ve gotta go to the fete at the English Ambassador’s. It’s Wednesday, Anna… I’ve gotta show my face there.’
‘I thought they’d cancelled that fete. Honestly, I’m getting a bit over all these festivities and fireworks n’stuff.’
‘Oh, are ya? Well, you should’ve told them, I’m sure they’d have cancelled it for you,’ said the prince, who, like a wound-up-clock, tended to say shit he didn’t mean.
‘Don’t be a nob… Oh, I was meaning to ask you – you know stuff like this; what did they decide about Novosiltsev’s dispatch?
‘Urgh, don’t even get me started,’ replied the prince in a cold, listless tone. ‘What did they decide? They decided Buonaparte has burnt his boats, and I reckon we’re just about ready to burn ours.’
Prince Vasili always spoke lazily, like an actor repeating a stale part. Anna Pavlovna Scherer, on the other hand, despite her forty years, overflowed with animation and impulsiveness. Being enthusiastic was like her social vocation – she would even force herself to be enthusiastic when she didn’t really feel like it, so as not to disappoint the expectations of those who knew her. A vague smile always played around her lips, as if expressing – like a spoilt kid – a constant awareness of her charming defect. She didn’t reckon it was a defect that actually needed fixing – and how would she go about fixing it anyway? Was she meant to just stop being enthusiastic?
In the midst of a conversation about political stuff, Anna Pavlovna burst out:
‘Oh, Austria? Strewth... Maybe I’m just an idiot… Maybe I just don’t get it, but Austria doesn’t want – and never did want – war. She’s totally screwing us over! Now Russia alone has to save Europe. Our gracious sovereign recognises his high vocation and will be true to it. Seriously, that’s the one thing I know for sure. Our good and wonderful sovereign has to perform the noblest role on earth, and he’s so virtuous and noble that God will not forsake him. No way. He will fulfil his vocation and crush the hydra of revolution, which is worse than bloody ever now that it’s embodied by that absolute psychopath. We alone must avenge the blood of the just one… Who else do you reckon we can rely on? England? Nah, they’ve gone all commercial, they wouldn’t understand Emperor Alexander’s loftiness of soul. She flat refused to evacuate Malta. She’s convinced we’re up to something shonky, like there’s some secret motive behind our actions. What answer did Novosiltsev get? None. The English just don’t get it – our Emperor is a good bloke, totally willing to selflessly sacrifice whatever it takes for the good of mankind. And what have they promised? Sweet F-A! And the little they have promised, they won’t bloody well do anyway! Prussia has always said Buonaparte is invincible, and that Europe doesn’t stand a chance against him. I don’t believe a word that Hardenburg says, Haugwitz either, for that matter. This famous Prussian neutrality is just a cop out. I have faith only in God and the lofty destiny of our adored monarch. He’ll save Europe, you watch.’
She suddenly paused, smiling at her own impulsivity.
‘I reckon we should’ve sent you instead of Wintzingerode,’ said the Prince with a smirk, ‘and you could’ve just berated the King of Prussia until he agreed with ya. You’re such a good talker! Aye, can I have a cuppa tea?’
‘Yeah, in a sec. A propos ,’ she added, calming down a smidge, ‘I’m expecting two very interesting fellas here tonight. Le Vicomte de Mortemart, he’s connected to the Montmorencys through the Rohans – one of the best French families. He’s a genuine émigré – one of the good ones. And also Abbot Morio. Do you know him? He’s a clever bastard. He has been received by the Emperor, did you know that?’
‘I’ll be glad to meet them,’ said the prince. ‘Should be good. But, oh, I just realised,’ he went on, being careful to seem careless, as if this was just an after-thought – though really the question he was about to ask was the main reason he rocked up at all: ‘is it true that the Dowager Empress wants Baron Funke to get the first secretary gig over in Vienna? Not to trash-talk him or anything, but I mean the baron is kinda… you know…’
Prince Vasili wanted the first secretary gig for his son – but he was up against others, who were trying to get Baron Funke into the spot, via the Dowager Empress Marya Fedorovna.
--- continued next comment ---
Anna narrowed her eyes, attempting to convey with her squint that she didn’t think that she – or anyone, for that matter – had the right to talk shit about what the Empress desired or was pleased with.
‘Baron Funke has been recommended to the Dowager Empress by her sister,’ was all she said, in a dry and mournful tone.
As she spoke, Anna Pavlovna’s face suddenly went all soft, conveying her profound and sincere devotion to the Empress, as well as a hint of sadness. This happened every time she mentioned her honoured patroness. She added that her majesty had deigned to show Baron Funke beaucoup d’estime (high esteem), and again her face went all soft and sad.
The prince didn’t say anything and didn’t seem much to give a shit. But, with the womanly and courtier-like quickness and tact which came by force of habit to her, Anna Pavlovna wanted to both tell him off (for talking shit about the bloke who’d been recommended to the Empress), and to console him – so she went with:
‘Anyway, about your family. Do you know what a stir your daughter’s making, since she’s been hanging round? Everyone loves her! They say she’s really beautiful.’
The prince bowed his head, as if to say thanks, Anna – you’re alright, ya know.
‘You know what I reckon?’ she went on, after a little pause, and she moved closer to the prince, smiling amiably at him as if to say Let’s not talk politics and society any more – let’s have a real D&M now – ‘I reckon sometimes the good things in life aren’t distributed evenly. Why has fate given you two awesome children? Your older ones, I mean. Not your youngest Anatole – he’s a dick,’ she added in a tone with no hint of apology and with her eyebrows raised. ‘Still, two awesome kids, and you don’t even appreciate them! Everyone else loves them… You don’t deserve to have them.’
She smiled a big goofy smile.
‘Well, I can’t help it, can I?’ said the prince. ‘Lavater would’ve said I don’t have the paternity lump on my skull…’
‘Nah, seriously, I’m saying this to you for real. Do you know I really do think Anatole is a dick? And - just between you, me, and the fence post’ (and her face went all melancholy) ‘he was mentioned at her Majesty’s, and everyone felt sorry for you.’
The prince had no response, but Anna looked at him significantly, awaiting his reply. He frowned.
‘What can I do about it?’ he said at last. ‘You know I did everything I could for them: good education and all that, and they’re still both complete drongos. Hippolyte is at least a quiet drongo, but Anatole? Strewth, you can’t shut him up! And that’s the only difference between them. Trust me, they’re both dickheads.’ He said all this with a big and easy smile, his most natural smile of the night, as if, somehow, shit-talking his own kids gave him genuine joy.
‘Guys like you shouldn’t be allowed to have kids… I mean, if you weren’t a dad, you’d be a great guy in every way,’ said Anna, looking up thoughtfully.
‘I am your faithful slave – and I’d only say this to you, but my kids are the bane of my bloody existence. They’re the cross I have to bear. That’s how I explain it to myself, otherwise I’d go nuts. Can’t help it, mate.’
He said no more, but expressed his resignation to cruel fate by a gesture. Anna Pavlova nodded pensively.
‘Have you ever thought of marrying off your prodigal son Anatole?’ she asked. ‘I know matchmaking is an old bird’s game, and I’m not that old yet… but still, I do know a certain young lady who is rather pissy with her dad. She’s a relation of yours, actually; Princess Mary Bolkonskaya.’
Prince Vasili didn’t reply – though with the quickness of memory and perception befitting a man of the world, he nodded his head to show he was processing the idea.
‘Do you know…’ he said at last, evidently unable to get his dreary thoughts under control, ‘that frickin Anatole is costing me forty thousand rubles a year? And,’ he went on, ‘it’s only getting worse… Who knows how much he’ll be costing me in five years, if he carries on this way. That’s the curse of being a father, putting up with these little mongrels. So, is she rich, this Mary chick?’
‘Her old man is. Stingy, too. He lives in the country. He’s the well-known Prince Bolkonski – you know; the guy who had to retire from the army under the late Emperor. He was nicknamed “the King of Prussia”. He’s a clever bugger, and a total weirdo, and a bore. Mary hates it there with him, poor girl. She’s got a brother; I think you know him – fella who married Lisa Meinen recently. He’s an aide-de-camp of Kutuzov’s. He’ll be here tonight.’
‘Listen, dear Annette,’ said the prince, suddenly taking Anna Pavlovna’s hand and – for some reason – drawing it downwards. ‘If you can hook them up, I will always be your most devoted slave. Wait – slafe – with an f, as a village elder of mine writes in his reports. She’s rich, and from a good family – that’s all I want.’
And with his unique mix familiarity and effortless grace, he raised her hand to his lips, gave it a kiss, then swung it back and forth as he lay back in his armchair, looking in another direction.
‘ Attendez ,’ said Anna Pavlovna, reflecting. ‘I’ll speak to Lise, young Bolkonski’s wife, tonight, and we’ll make it happen. Bloody hell, now look what you’ve done… I’m officially an “Old Bird.” This is all your fault!’
Thanks for adding this, certainly had a laugh! Is it crazy that this actually helped cement my initial understandings of the characters and what is happening? Haha
Agree! I blow through "modern" books but reading classics where the language is more difficult easily confuses me so I have to reread lines multiple times. This helped me make sure I knew what I read!
Totally. Especially jumping into a new book. Thanks for this. I sincerely hope you finish this translation. I will keep an eye on it from time to time.
Please read this version for your podcast. It’s fun to read but it’s more fun to hear in your authentic accent.
This is fabulous! Thanks for putting the chapter up.
Howdy everyone! Here's a couple of extras to get us started...
Thanks for the sidebar link. I do the majority of my Reddit on mobile so if you could continue that that would be helpful to me.
Summary : Anna Pavlovna hosts a party for the St. Petersburg elite. Prince Vasili shows up, pays his respects to Pavlovna and after a brief discussion about politics of the day, he gets to the point of his visit; securing a job/life for his increasingly destitute son, Anatole. Pavlovna indicates she may be willing to help as she knows of a single daughter of a miserable member of the nobility, Princess Bolkonsky.
Tolstoy introduces the society where this book will take place. It's weird, but I feel like all these people are snowed-in to their home. It's warm, cozy, and comfortable, as long as everybody pretends the snow, ice, and wind isn’t just outside their windows. That’s the Russian aristocracy and nobility in my opinion. Happy, but quietly aware of what’s raging just beyond their borders (and even domestically).
Line
: Anna Pavlovna speaking to Prince Vasili
Briggs: “How can one feel well when one is … suffering in a moral sense? Can any sensitive person find peace of mind nowadays?”
Maude: “Can one be well while suffering morally? Can one be calm in times like these if one has any feeling?”
P&V: “How can one be well … when one suffers morally? Is it possible to remain at ease in our time, if one has any feeling?”
**I probably won't post answers to the questions each day as I've read the book a few times, but I'll try to comment where I see fit. I do have little summaries I've written a few years ago and I'll try to post those. I've also done a bit of a translation analysis on key lines, but I'm not totally complete with that... I'll post with the hope of finishing in 2022.
You’re great for this, ty!!
My biggest thing is: would people really have interchanged Russian and French back then? Especially when the two speaking here are both Russian, and one is talking about how she despises Napoleon.
"The grippe" is my new favourite term for the flu, incidentally.
EDIT: Wow, I'm listening to the podcast episode now, and he brought up that exact curiosity. Huh.
The answer is absolutely yes—at least with the Russian aristocracy. Catherine the Great made French the official language of the Russian Court and all educated Russian nobility were expected to learn and understand French.
Huh. That's a weird bit of trivia, although I'm sure there's a reason behind it. Thanks Catherine the Great.
I find it quiet interesting that Russian Nationalists preparing for war with the French use their language.
Nationalist themes usually consist of forcing the native language on everyone and taking pride in it.
Some history on why French was so widespread: https://www.legallanguage.com/legal-articles/language-of-diplomacy/
So is this like the "Beard Tax" thing that was implemented because Peter wanted to emulate certain aspects of western European culture in Russia?
"Grippe" is (aside from obviously French for flu) also German for flu!
Also Spanish for flu
Different spelling but essentially the same word, griep is Dutch for the flu.
Also Russian and Ukrainian.
Take a 'p' out of there and its how it's written in Portuguese, as well: gripe
It's also gripa in Romanian. Romanian has heavy French influences, interesting to see how many other languages were influenced as well.
As others have said the Russian aristocracy indeed spoke lots of French-they even thought in French as Tolstoy points out in this chapter. In the original there is also much untranslated French so War and Peace is really a bilingual book.
French used to be the international language of diplomacy, so yeah - the Russian aristocracy would definitely have known and used it.
I was a little surprised at just how much french was in this chapter, and at how intermingled it was. However, I remembered reading this comment about Tolstoy's use of language and found it again,
"Tolstoy himself was an excellent linguist who knew Russian, French, English, Arabic, Hebrew, Ancient Greek, and German. Although he was extremely familar with French, he disliked its widespread adoption in Russian society. When Tolstoy has a character speaking in French it is an implied sign of insincerity or inauthenticity."
I did get the feeling the noted preference for French that the text mentioned had some sort of bent to it on first reading it, a lack of admiration/respect from the author's view. Very interesting to find out about his own disdain for the Russian use of French in this chapter, thanks for adding it in!
When Tolstoy has a character speaking in French it is an implied sign of insincerity or inauthenticity."
Really interesting and useful to know!
When Tolstoy has a character speaking in French it is an implied sign of insincerity or inauthenticity."
This happens at a 19th century book from my country, Portugal ( Os Maias , by Eça de Queiros), where the characters mix portuguese with french. It's the same portrait. Very interesting.
Welcome everybody! I'm a 'Year of War and Peace' veteran and am excited about this year with the Hemingway List taking over. It's going to be so much fun.
This year I'm planning on focusing my reading around one key line/passage and looking into the various translations of that key line and how they affect the story. Anthony Briggs, Constance Garnett, Rosemary Edmonds, Ann Dunnigan, Louise & Aylmer Maude, and Richard Pevear & Larissa Volokhnosky are the translators I'm breaking down. I would love for anyone reading non-English translations to weigh on on any of these translated line comparisons to further the thoughts. Each day I will post a line scenario and each of the translations with a response that addresses the translation and the my response to the discussion questions.
***
Line : Anna Pavlovna speaking to Prince Vasili
Briggs : “How can one feel well when one is … suffering in a moral sense? Can any sensitive person find peace of mind nowadays?”
Garnett : “How can one be well when one is in moral suffering? How can one help being worried in times like these, if one has any feeling?
Edmonds : “How can one feel well when one’s moral sensibilities are suffering? Can anyone possessed of any feeling remain tranquil in these days?”
Dunnigan: “How can one be well-- when suffering morally? Do you think it is possible, if one has any feeling, to remain calm in times like these?”
Maude : “Can one be well while suffering morally? Can one be calm in times like these if one has any feeling?”
P&V : “How can one be well … when one suffers morally? Is it possible to remain at ease in our time, if one has any feeling?”
To answer Question #3 directly, this is my favorite line and it encapsulates the setting of the entire book for me (Question #2). Pavlovna is worried about suffering from a "moral" sense when in fact we're going to spend a year reading about suffering in a very real, physical sense. I think this opening chapter is a direct metaphor of Russian aristocratic society-- here are all these well-off, rich folks warm, half drunk, and discussing the philosophical nature of war and politics while positioning their sons for jobs that secure them against the very war that Pavlovna claims they need to win. Just outside the windows of Pavlovna's parlor, the cold, harsh reality of Napoleon's impending invasion is just out of reach-- for now. Pavlovna is social mastermind (Question #1), moving people around her parlor like marionettes, and worried about keeping "calm" in "times like these."
Parlor moralists - Tolstoy had some special hate reserved for them.
“Parlor moralists” — love it.
Fun project! I look forward to seeing the differences you find!
Adding some Romanian translation flavor :D The equivalent is quite different, more like "How can one be healthy when, spiritually, you are in no other way but restless? Is is possible for a sensitive person to remain careless in our times?" ("Cum poți fi sănătos când sufletește nu faci decât să te zbuciumi? E oare cu putință ca un om simțitor să rămână nepăsător în zilele noastre?" - translation by I. Frunzetti and N. Parocescu). This translation seems more in the spirit of Briggs.
Whoa, that’s awesome... thanks! You’re more than welcome to share a Romanian translation whenever you’d like. Are you referencing Romanian as you read?
I'm going mainly with the revamped Maude (Oxford) and following the Romanian translation to have a different feel (as some concepts are more familiar in Ro because of some shared culture and history).
The full reference is Ion Frunzetti and Nicolae Parocescu, Art publishing house, Bucharest, 2018.
Romanian, that's awesome!
As a Russian, I like Briggs's version of this line more.
Pavlovna is worried about suffering from a "moral" sense
I don't think she's worried at all, the preceding remark of Prince Vasiliy is accompanied by Tolstoy's comment about his indifferent and in fact almost mocking tone. Anna, being no less versed in high society manners, recongnized that without any doubt, and just played along.Also, please don't call her Pavlovna :) Addressing people by patronymics is only possible in a highly colloquial way, plus it gives out the low social status of the person being approached. You could use it to address an old cleaning lady in the staircase, or a local drunkie outside of the block, and even then not everyone prefers doing it this way. For Anna Pavlovna it's definitely not possible.
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Russian, as usual.
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I have always wanted an excuse to learn Russian, but I can barely make it through the long sentences in English, so I don't think it would go very well if I tried it in Russian!
Probably quite a bit, as is the case with any translation of great literary works. As time goes by, we have more and more footnotes in classic literature, and I've seen Russian high school students and even young adults honestly saying they couldn't grasp the meaning of some classical piece. Functional illiteracy is spreading throughout the world, and you have to have a passion for language and history to enjoy reading something like W&P.
I've read classical works comparatively between the original Castellano (Spanish) and the translated English version. The content might be presented clearly and accurately in the translation, but there is a feel to it that is different in the original.
In any language, classic literature may be difficult to grasp, adjusting to a previous time period and the customs and culture of that setting. But with perseverance and, as you said, "with a passion for language and history," it is possible.
What do you mean by functional illiteracy?
The inability to explain the gist of what one has read in one's own words, even in a very simple language akin to the Australian translation which popped up here a couple of days ago and which I deem an insult to Tolstoy
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Ooh, I'm excited to see all the different takes on the lines. When I read translator's notes, often they will have such a section and it's interesting and sometimes funny (I'm reading the Briggs version, and he talks about updating archaic language that gives people a chuckle, citing an example of "he exposed himself in the square" or something along those lines).
Strange, the norwegian translation omits the key word “moral“ altogether, replacing it with “soul.“
Roughly: “How can one be healthy ... when one is suffering in the soul? Is it possible to be calm at mind, if one really has emotions?“
“Hvordan kan man være frisk ... når man lider på sjelen? Går det an å være rolig til sinns i vår tid, hvis man virkelig har følelser?“
(Geir Kjetsaa, 2004. Solum Bokvennen, Fjerde opplag, 2020)
I’m so excited to take on this challenge! Hopefully I will be able to do it in my first try haha-
Right now there’s a lot of names being thrown out which I’m sure will be a recurring thing but I really liked the line:
“They say old maids have a mania for matchmaking, and though I don’t feel that weakness in myself as yet, I know a little person who is very unhappy with her father.”
I like that it was followed by the statement:
"It shall be on your family's behalf that I'll start my apprenticeship as old maid."
Edit: I wonder is this a hint that we shall see more match making from Anna later in the novel.
That was my favourite line from this chapter too. I also wonder if the matches will have a big influence on other parts of the story and how they will weave into the plot.
I also liked how the translation I am reading has retained a few of the French references, given the importance of the language to Russian high society.
The P&V translation has “marriages” instead of “matchmaking”, so I didn’t pick up on the joke. That’s great haha
Thanks for posting the first thread!
This is my first time reading War and Peace so I have no idea where we are going from here
I liked Anna Pavlovna immediately — though she is hilariously blunt about not liking the Prince’s young son Anatole! I thought that was very funny, as were the Prince’s views on his skills of fatherhood
I know pretty much nothing about the Napoleonic Wars (barring how they end) so I am keen to learn more
Planning to read a chapter a day!
I thought her blunt comment was hilarious as well!
Regarding the setting we open on, I’m thinking I need to strengthen my historical knowledge of the time period! My awareness of the political context of War and Peace is relatively limited, my driving interest in reading it being the character writing. In that regard, the first chapter did not disappoint.
In what experience I have with Tolstoy, I’ve come to expect really realistic and personal characterization for even less major players—for example in Anna Karenina he dedicated tons of time to nailing down the personalities and internal worlds of Dolly and Stepan to the point that they could have books of their own while their actual role in the central plot is small enough that someone who only watched the movie might barely remember them at all. Kitty had a whole character arc aside from just being a pretty love interest, I could go on about the care put into making the characters all real people with internal logic. Because of that experience, I’m expecting high things from War and Peace. I’m interested to see how that style of writing meshes with a story in which many characters are (or share a name with) real historical figures.
I’m going into this not knowing a huge amount about the actual plot, so I can’t begin to predict how the events discussed in this opening conversation will pan out, but in meeting these characters I’m already excited to see what comes next. I’m particularly fond of Prince Vasili, the way he just says whatever without even caring to sound sincere or decent is fun to read—I’m sure we’ll come to hate him more as we get to know him! Looking forward to meet Anatole, being labeled an infamous dick in the first chapter seems like a promising start to an interesting character.
Anna Pavlovna so far seems like an interesting woman—possibly an inciting agent for the plot, at the very least a fine example of the classic powerful aging socialite too wealthy to suffer any backlash from speaking her mind but still conscious enough of societal norms of the elite to play those games. At least, that’s my impression of her so far. Opening on her giving a half-joking upbraiding to Prince Vasili was both funny and informative, and her pulling back from an awkward conversation to pivot into praise for his children with a side of shade was telling about her—sensitive to manners but still pretty willing to speak her mind.
I’m possibly off-base on plenty here, just some of my first impressions. Nothing enormously deep to say one chapter in.
Good bot!
Very excited! Reading the version from Gutenberg.
It was an interesting start! I fear the Russian names, but hopefully it’s manageable to follow. I’m intrigued by the political intrigue afoot.
Spoiler free character list here if you would like to use it to remember names
Thanks for this.
The names won’t be bad, you’ll just have to remember that one character has a few different names and nicknames!
Lord help me
It wont be too bad! hahaha
That’s not helping with my fear of Russian names! I suspect I’ll be creating quite a few notes along the way.
I suggest making some family trees if your book doesn’t already have them.
I’m fascinated by high society and how the art of conversation was so important to the aristocracy. Makes for very witty dialogue.
Exactly. Just finished reading the first chapter and the main thing I gathered from it was that Anna seems to enjoy throwing unexpected quips at the Prince to see how he'll react but we can see how he is able to take it all in his stride and play the game as well.
I just finished the first chapter and maybe I'm dumb, but where did you gather that from? Anna to me seemed reserved for the most part and focused on maintaining order of the gathering.
Especially the first dialoge had it in it for me. Her opening sentence which really was quite an attack and his response.
“Heavens! what a virulent attack!” replied the prince, not in the least disconcerted by this reception.
That was a great opening if you ask me. Prince Vasili was a joy to read.
He seems so chill and witty. Have you read chapter 2? Liked it even more.
It depends on what you mean by Chapter 2! In the translation I have, it begins after Anna's reception draws to a close. So I've read that far.
Edit: It seems I've accidentally read till Chapter 5! And I can assure you it only gets better! There is a subtle yet sublime humour underlying their social interactions.
Yes! I love historical fiction and I especially love court drama.
I read this book when I was around 20 years old, some 48 years ago. I am so looking forward to reading with all of you. In truth, I would rather just read your comments and not join in for fear of not measuring up to the brilliance I see here, but I think it is important to our success to do so, even to simply check in. It is much easier to ask the questions or make a comment when in a room of “friendly faces” if only on the screen. Oh, I do hope others will join in too, if only to say they are present and reading!
I too realize my history is a bit rusty and wonder if anyone can suggest a brief primer on this war and it’s times. Even a movie would be worthwhile for some us whose eyes get a bit tired at the end of the day. Speaking of which, I do hope it is not a major transgression to ask if anyone has contemplated watching one of the movies of War and Peace to help smooth the reading along. Is there a version that any of you recommend?
I look forward to reading this book with all of you lovely people.
I doubt very many of us are up on our Napoleonic Wars history—I know I’m not—so no trouble there. You sound like a lovely person and I look forward to reading more of your comments!
I want to question at this moment in the book whether the Napoleon is a figure of history or one of fiction? I didn't start this book expecting a historical at all, so I am wary of this seemingly historical Napoleon.
This is round two for me. Reading this chapter again, it's the marriage plot that really stands out to me. Anatole really sucks, so they're trying to get a sheltered young woman who knows nothing about him and to marry him, banking on her being too miserable at home to say no. They are trying to move her from one bad situation to another, as if marriage will magically make Anatole less of a public problem for Vasily. It's very short sighted and totally lacking in compassion for their intended victim.
Hey I’m going to add the last line for each translation from now on, but I’m currently driving interstate, so I’ll do it in a few hours and from now on :)
"It shall be on your family's behalf that I start my apprenticeship as old maid."
Thanks!
Oh YES thank you so much! My version doesn't have chapters and I just blew through about four days until I recognized a line that's on the Google spreadsheet!
For P&V the last sentence is : Ce sera dans votre famille que je ferai mon apprentissage de vieille fille.
I like her too! I loved the little detail of her sometimes feigning enthusiasm just so people aren't disappointed. It felt really true to life.
First I must confess that I joined the reading group not being a Tolstoy fan, but nevertheless looking to change my mind : ) I warmed up to the subject of WAP by reading Isaiah Berlin's " The Hedgehog and the Fox: An Essay on Tolstoy’s View of History ", which I warmly recommend and which has put Tolstoy in a whole different light for me.
I believe the first chapter does a wonderful job at introducing the important theme of stereotypes, interpretations, superficiality and triviality of historical commentary. War is brooding in Europe and characters discuss this in the most mundane fashion at a social event. Anna Pavlova's utterances are filled with half-digested soundbites and cliches (Austrian are like this, the English are like that...) and only serve as some sort of polite introduction to more pressing issues, such as match-making for Price Vasili's younger son.
I found these introductory observations by Amy Mandelker in the Oxford World Classics edition very insightful: " Theater and theatrical moments are highly significant in War and Peace... ", " The staging of human activity and the parallel between theaters of war and peace is underscored in descriptions of evening parties and soirees... ". The choice of French for the opening paragraph is also intentional - " The artificiality and mendacity characterising human relations are underscored by Tolstoy's use of the French language, spoken preferentially by his mist superficial and manipulative characters. (...) a predilection for speaking French is frequently an indictment of character, especially where Prince Vasili Kuragin, his friends and family, and their social intrigues are concerned. "
u/DanaUdu you're going to get plenty of Tolstoy's view of history as we spend 2021 together with 'War & Peace,' just wait...
Great first post!
Yes that is a good thing to notice about the usage of French! I'm glad you pointed that out to the group, it runs through the whole book.
I love the polished boredom of Vassily. He seems like the kind of person who you can never tell if they mean what they say. Is he being genuine with Anna Pavlova, or is he being fashionably grouchy about his kids? I also think it's interesting that he has no comment about his daughter. Somebody called her beautiful, so thats as much as needs to be said about her.
I was going for fashionably grouchy, but I wasn't sure either!
To me he seemed to be fashionably, if reluctantly, polite and his real distaste for his children, especially his sons, seemed to slip through the facade.
When I think of War and Peace and the New Year, I think of Charlie Brown.
I remember watching Happy New Year, Charlie Brown when I was a kid, and while all of his friends were enjoying the Christmas holidays, Charlie Brown was reading -- suffering through, more accurately -- an assigned school reading of War and Peace . (It occurred to me later, why were none of Charlie Brown's classmates, like Lucy, likewise suffering through War and Peace ? Perhaps, a question best left unasked.) In a way, then, for me the New Year is a time for War and Peace .
I have two copies of the book at hand. One, a well-worn Inner Sanctum edition. The other, the Standard Ebooks edition of two years ago. Both are the Maude translation, but they have differences. One has footnotes. The other, a naming convention closer to the sense of the original Russian. My intention is to use both, reading the Standard Ebooks version and supplementing it with the Inner Sanctum's footnotes.
As a writer myself, the first chapter presents several interesting features. It's our first point of contact with the writer and the world he intends us to inhabit for the next twelve hundred pages, give or take. He has to introduce characters. He has to start building his world. He has to draw in the reader and convince them to continue.
A party is not a bad way of doing that.
A party brings people together, in some cases forces them together. Unexpected reactions and combustible combinations are possible. Relationships are tested and explored. A party also gives the characters opportunties to talk about the things happening the writer wants us to know, both personal to the characters themselves and about the wider world. And hopefully, the reader will find something to hold onto and carry her along for the ride.
Let's consider our two protagonists in Chapter 1. Anna Pavlovna, maid of honor to the Empress and host of the evening's festivities. Prince Vasili ("One ping only, Vasili") Kurgain, minor Russian noble putting in an apperance.
The question asked about Anna Pavlovna, and I will return to her momentarily, but it's Prince Vasili that interests me more, because Tolstoy makes it abundantly clear in his narration that Prince Vasili would like to be anywhere other than Anna Pavlovna's salon this evening in July 1805.
He's there because he feels he must be there -- she's the maid of honor to his Tsar's wife, and that's a difficult invitation to turn down -- and since he's there he's going to try to get something from her -- the appointment of his son Ippolit to a diplomatic post rumored to go to a rival, Baron (Tobias?) Funke. He answers her questions half-heartedly and with indifference, he listens to her denigrate his children, he sees there's no hope for his son for that diplomatic post... and then she dangles something interesting in front of him -- a marriage match for his idiot son Anatole to a distant relative of Prince Vasili's, Princess Marya Bolkonskaya, a rich and unhappy heiress with a difficult father. And Prince Vasili, whose son Anatole we learn her is not just an idiot but a profligate one, suddenly finds himself with a reason to be there -- and at least a little warmth for Anna Pavlovna.
Anna Pavlovna, to answer the question asked, is unquestionably a gossip. Of course she's a gossip. That's her job . She's maid of honor to the Empress. She spends her days with the Empress, telling her all the court gossip she hears and seeking out the gossip she hasn't yet heard. A person doesn't get to a position like that without having impeccable social skills, a spotless reputation, unshakeable loyalty, and unquestionable connections. She knows Prince Vasili doesn't want to be there. She hears the indifference in his voice. She knows he's trying to use her to manipulate the Empress and, by extension, the Tsar. And then she flips it around on him. She's drawn him in. She dangles the prize -- the Princess Marya. She's caught her prey. She used him . She goes from a sickly woman who presents herself as an old maid to a shrewd manipulator of the highest order. I respect that.
The question, and perhaps this will be developed in future chapters, is what's in it for her? What does she want from Prince Vasili?
Charlie Brown got through War and Peace . I can get through War and Peace . (Again.)
Thank you for this insight I hope you stay a while for the ride
Something that struck me was Vassily as a father. Referring to fatherhood as the bane of his life, while still wishing the best for his children gave me a sense of his hope for his family but a deep frustration within himself.
I got the impression that he really just wanted to get his son off his hands due to his annual cost of 40,000 rubbles. It would be an embarrassment to Vassily if his children married into a poor or lower class family.
There's that aspect sure. I view it as selfish on the surface, but I think it goes a little deeper than that. I got the sense of emotional drain from Vassily aside from the obvious financial one that was referred to. He loves his son, but is frustrated by what sometimes comes with fatherhood.
Yes, he seems to be a complex character right from the get go. I really liked how he was introduced.
It gives me great trouble in how to interpret the characters of his children though. Whether they are truly troubled, or just misunderstood by their father. I suppose we'll just have to cross that bridge if and when we get to them.
I really like the way Anna’s ‘social butterfly’ approach is described. Though I’m sure it’s a bit different from translation to translation. So much French! I prefer having the translation footnotes at the bottom of the page, it’s fun trying to figure out the French by oneself
I also like knowing where Tolstoy intended us to see the readers specifically speaking French. I'm sure the nuance will be lost on me, or maybe it wasn't important at all but potentially one could read some significance into which characters use the language that was fashionable in society at the time, or when they use it.
I’d say that the Russian high society seems pretentious and manipulative, but I feel this was a short chapter to draw conclusions... I think that both descriptions of Napoleon (antichrist) and the Russian Emperor (altruistic) are totally oversimplified and naive... so I guess I don’t really dig Anna for now... :)
Or, given that she is more or less sworn to the Emperor and Empress, perhaps Anna Pavlovna is saying these things with such vehemence for social compliance?
By which I mean the expectation of loyalty to the Emperor, in addition to wanting to uphold her reputation as an explosive and outspoken character.
She may not feel so strongly about Napoleon as she says, but we shall have to wait and see :)
I like your comment on social compliance. We should also note that this is the Russian aristocracy, meaning that the ruler’s decisions are usually made in favour of the most privileged rather than the least privileged class of the society. So it is probably also in her personal interest not to question these things.
Furthermore as I understand it the 'emigres' were French nobles who flocked to the other courts in Europe during the French Revolutions. So given that one of them was at the party Anna might be exposed to a rather one-sided account of the going-ons in France.
I also agree with you on social compliance. Why does she appear to show a certain sadness when talking about the Empress? That intrigues me.
I'm surprised how easily I got into it. I'm going to be very tempted to read ahead, I'll try not to.
I like the way the characters speak, it's very regal. I like Anna, I get the feeling she'll be my favourite character.
Me too. I think the Russian Classics are so intimidating but are actually very readable.
I was half dreading this, thinking I wouldn't understand anything, so it's a nice surprise.
Me too, I was surprised at how casual their conversation was. Pretty easy to follow.
Of all the great authors, Tolstoy is especially known for his simple prose. He is my go to author whenever anyone I know who doesn’t read often asks for a recommendation.
Here is what Hemingway (another author know for his simple prose) has said about Tolstoy
“I started out very quiet and I beat Mr. Turgenev. Then I trained hard and I beat Mr. de Maupassant. I’ve fought two draws with Mr. Stendhal, and I think I had an edge in the last one. But nobody’s going to get me in any ring with Mr. Tolstoy unless I’m crazy or I keep getting better.“ ~ Ernest Hemingway in The New Yorker (13 May 1950)
Tolstoy in particular,(especially in his later years) made it a point to write as “simply” as possible. I put simply in quotes because as Nabokov pointed out in his lectures on Tolstoy what he did was anything but simple. He did this because he wanted his art to be as accessible as possible, and I think this is one of the reasons he is held up as one of the greatest writers to ever have done it, because he has a way of taking heavy subject matter and making it very simple.
Thats so interesting. Thanks for sharing.
I second that. Very surprised how readable it was and quite witty as well - Anna in particular. There are several lovely turns of phrase that I liked in particular:
"To be an enthusiast had become her social vocation and, sometimes even when she did not feel like it , she became enthusiastic in order not to disappoint the expectations of those who knew her."
"He spoke in that refined French in which our grandfathers not only spoke but thought, and with the gentle, patronizing intonation natural to a man of importance who had grown old in society and at court."
"If you were not a father there would be nothing I could reproach you with"
Looking forward to day 2 :)
Me too! :)
Anna might be very good at social chess, but it seems like she is a person who allows herself to be used knowingly, possible to be seen as the person who connected two parties.
My thoughts on Russian high society are linked to my thoughts on Napoleon being referenced in this chapter. The speaking French while talking about the man who styled himself "Emperor of the French" is an interesting detail. I think the characterization of Napoleon as an anti-Christ is a pretty solid generalization of the feeling in most of Europe among the aristocracy of the time. It's probably more a jab at him from the perspective of those in power watching others in power lose theirs in cascading succession in nearby nationstates.
A quirk of translation: I pulled up the Gutenberg version to check a quote that I liked and found that the version in my audiobook (the Dole translation) was the version I preferred. The audiobook reads, "Is it possible these days for a person possessed of any feeling to remain calm?" when Anna is speaking with Prince Vassily; the Gutenberg version says "Can one be calm in times like these if one has any feeling?" Small difference, but it really caught me in the read aloud version.
FYI, from the Briggs translation:
How can one feel well when one is ... suffering in a moral sense? Can any sensitive person find peace of mind nowadays?
From what I understand, Briggs is going for ease of readability for the modern English reader. The differences in translations are so interesting.
P&V translation of that line: "Is it possible to remain at ease in our time, if one has any feeling?"
Personally, the Dole translation is cumbersome to quickly decipher, although I will admit it is much more poetic than either of the other translations.
True. More poetic is likely why I paid any attention to it at all. Something small to highlight and move on from, no doubt!
It is a pretty relevant quote for our era too I suppose.
From Edmonds:
Can anyone possessed of any feeling remain tranquil in these days?
Slightly clumsy to read in my opinion
First of all, happy new years to all of y'all!
This is my first ever time reading War and Peace for the entire year; I thought that it would be a daunting task, considering the length of this work. Surprisingly, from the first page onwards, it's readable enough for me, enjoyable even! That gave me the confidence to complete this masterpiece in the future (hopefully).
Anyways, I'll give my two cents about Anna Pavlovna Scherer now. To be honest, I kinda like her. She has that amicable personality that is quite fitting for a lady hosting a soiree. I observed that she's quite sharp, socially intelligent, and tactful; I suppose these things made her quite popular amongst aristocrats.
On the other hand, I was quite taken aback by her deep devotion to Russia, particularly on Emperor Alexander. I do not know where her supreme confidence in the emperor came from (describing him as "the savior of Europe" or as someone who "desires nothing for himself, and everything for the good of humanity", among others); like, is he
really
that great of a guy? And as a devotee to the Empress Marya Fyodorovna, anything that may be considered a slight to the Imperial Majesty, she will chastise in a way that is so tactful, that nobody would notice (at least to me). Look how she handled Prince Vassily!
In all, she is an interesting character. Smart, well-connected, well-versed in political matters, and a good hostess. I am curious to see why she is so, and to see how well she can handle being a matchmaker.
As for the novel's setting, I am not well-acquainted with Russian aristocracy of that time, nor of the Napoleonic wars, but I am quite happy with the "Peace" bits of the story, and maybe the "War" parts too, if I reach it. But as someone said, the first four chapters are all about this soiree and aristocratic stuff. I can already see a bunch of people, sublime and superbly dressed, chatting in half-French half-Russian (as aristocrats do), exchanging pleasantries, dancing and all that stuff. My first impressions are all of these fancy stuff.
Lastly, if I have a favorite line from this chapter, it's gotta be this: "My children are the bane of my existence". Prince Vassily here is such a mood. I can imagine being in his place, having two kids (who are kinda imbeciles), and a beautiful daughter, at least. I can sympathize.
To wrap it all up, I hope that I will find myself sharing my thoughts again in the next chapter! It's gonna be a fun ride, I'm sure of it.
(Pardon my English, btw)
Great post!
Thanks a lot!
Anna Pavlovna seems like the superficial kind to me. Like her inner well being is dependent on other's opinions about her. idk... this is just what I gathered from the first chapter.
Anna Pávlovna Schérer on the contrary, despite her forty years, overflowed with animation and impulsiveness. To be an enthusiast had become her social vocation and, sometimes even when she did not feel like it, she became enthusiastic in order not to disappoint the expectations of those who knew her.
Couldn't agree more!
'despite her forty years' 😭🤣
I agree in a sense! But I also interpreted her character as not being superficial in a bad way. I think she just wants approval from others because she doesn’t approve of herself. “Can any sensitive person find peace of mind nowadays?”
Great point!
I feel like she's sort of a gossip, but perhaps with some deeper purpose? She talks about not liking Anatoli, but when asked about the Empress/Baron thing she's super tight-lipped. A gossip would want to share all of their inside info, not hide it.
But does she talk about Anatole with anyone other than Prince Vasily? Her gossip, in that example, is missing gossip's typical element of sneakiness. It seemed to me more to characterize how frank Russians can be, or how she is close friends with Vasily.
I agree she didn't gossip about the Empress, but she did seem to tell Vasily all he needed to know. The Empress's recommended the Baron, implying Vasily's son didn't stand a good chance.
As a bit of a completionist I like to read past folks' takes on this book as I go. To that end, in case anyone is similar and it's helpful to them, I think as I post I'll also include links to past discussions.
It shall be on your family's behalf that I start my apprenticeship as an old maid.
Which translation is this from? I'm reading the Briggs translation and the line is "I'll use your family to start learning the old maid's trade." I find yours much funnier and more direct.
I like both of these characters so far. Anna is vivacious and performative in all of the best ways. I feel like both Anna and Kuragin are politicking their way through the conversation, but Anna does it with such flair. I am also very amused by the way they talk about Kuragin's children.
I was wondering if I'd have to wait until the next holiday season to hear people idly gossiping about remote wars, so I'm glad I'm getting my fill in this first chapter.
Very excited y'all are doing this again, and excited to do it alongside you!
A bit late, but I’m quite sure that quote is from Maude. I’m listening to the audible version and I’m pretty sure that’s how it was read (Newton is a phenomenal narrator btw)
Thanks for those links, that made interesting reading.
I hope you're right about conversational politicking. I just read it as idle gossip and performative loyalty.
Which translation is this from? I'm reading the Briggs translation and the line is "I'll use your family to start learning the old maid's trade." I find yours much funnier and more direct.
I had similar thoughts. I’m glad I’m following along here, because (to my shame) when I read this line in the Briggs I managed to miss that it was calling back to the earlier comment about a mania for matchmaking, and got very confused about who the old maid was whose trade she was going to learn! Surely not Lise, young Bolkonsky’s wife?!
When reading Les Miserables, I was really interested in the fashion. I was curious about Prince Vasili Kuragin's outfit. I found this page from the Victoria and Albert Museum about male Russian court dress .
Anna Povlovna had had a cough for some days. She was, as she said, suffering from la grippe, grippe being then a new word in St. Petersburg, used only by the elite.
I assumed it was tuberculous, but this is not a Romantic book. W&P is realistic, so it's just the flu.
It's going to be fun to compare and contrast the depictions of Napoleon from Les Miserables.
Anna is so dramatic that it may not have even been the flu, just the annoying cough of a common cold. As a reader living through the coronavirus pandemic right now, I think it’s gross she invited guests over while she’s showing symptoms of illness.
And she allowed the prince to kiss her hand. That nasty germ filled hand.
Right? I know that germ theory of disease hadn’t been developed yet but 🤢
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What would you think of a post every couple chapters of the characters introduced in them in different adaptations?
I think it’d be useful to have that for each scene change - especially the shifts between society and war.
About Les Miserables vs War and Peace on Napoleon --
This is fascinating to me because they're such similar books (Tolstoy apparently was partially inspired by LM) but with such opposite views on Napoleon. Hugo seems to think he's great, and so much more than just an ordinary person. Tolstoy thinks he's not only a bad thing, but also that he's just an ordinary person who isn't anything special.
All in all, they're very different but they don't ascribe to any of the dichotomies people might have in terms of sorting by "individual" vs. "society" ideologies...
Something scholarly must have been written about this, and I'd love to read some of it someday...
Here we go! A great way to kick off 2020.
In answer to the discussion questions:
I’m not sure what to think. Anna and Prince Vassily have a regal air about them but I have not determined whether this is truly regal or pompous. Need some more context.
First impressions of the setting took me back to The Great Gatsby. Very rich, very well spoken, but also quite vapid.
Favorite line: “Being an enthusiast had become her social position, and she sometimes became enthusiastic even when she had no wish to, so as not to deceive the expectations of people who knew her.” I know many people like this, and have fallen into this pattern myself a few times before. Well stated, Leo!
Looking forward to going along on this journey with you all! The comments are great and really helpful!
Yes love that line and see that in myself sometimes.
This is my fourth attempt at this book.
The first two were solo efforts a decade or so ago and I reached about halfway the first time and maybe a quarter or third of the way the second time.
The third attempt was AYOWAP 2019 and I managed to lapse within the first couple of weeks.
Last year in those opening chapters most things were new to me as I'd forgotten the majority of it from the first couple of tries. This year the first chapter was quite familiar so I don't want to say too much about it for fear of spoiling what's ahead. While familiar it was still very enjoyable so that is promising!
Although each successive attempt has been shorter, I'm optimistic about this one as I should have more free time this year, so much so that I'm also going to (possibly and probably foolishly) attempt the year of Middlemarch.
Looking forward to reading along with you and good luck to you all!
I read this book like 14 years ago. It was the first full book I read in English. I tried to re-read along with the group the last to years but fail terribly, I've lost the habit of reading and I want to pick it up again.
Hope this will be the year I finish this challenge.
Ambitious choice for your first full book in another language! What is your native language?
I've lost the habit of reading and I want to pick it up again. Hope this will be the year I finish this challenge.
Well let's build the habit this year! :)
My native language is spanish, I knew it was an stupid choice but I tried the spanish version (the one that was on my library, I guess that there are better translations) and didn't like it so I gave the english version a try.
What was more difficult was all the war related words. But other than that I remembered that I enjoyed it a lot. And I had tons of time too.
Well, not so stupid if you managed to do it! I imagine reading something as large and all encompassing in terms of themes in life really helped solidify your English. Probably gave you a better vocabulary than many natives!
Happy New Years and thanks for starting us off!
Which translation are we doing?
I’m doing Briggs and it seems incredibly readable. I read Dostoyevsky’s entire catalogue last year (across various translations) and none were nearly as readable as what I’ve seen from Briggs here so far
Maude!
I was not expecting the humor! But it was very welcome. I greatly enjoy Anna Pavlovna's character - she seems like someone who's "over" seeming prim and proper and this results in a looser style of conversation. Prince Vasili, though, seems a bit too scheming for my liking.
My favorite line is the last line, I think, which I didn't get when I first saw this post but when I read in the context of the chapter I chuckled at.
I didn't finish reading last year but I do remember that Tolstoy has a surprising sense of humor! The beginning wasn't as dry as I expected but I've heard the "war" sections can be tough sometimes.
just finished chapter one, yaaaay
this is going to be interesting, as i am reading the novel in arabic -Sami alDroobi's translation in case any arabic speakers wonder- as well as english -maude's-
i didn't know about the reputation of the first sentence, it did rub me the wrong way, felt a bit rushed in both versions. but i wasn't about to quit one page in :p
by the end i was certain i'll see this through gods willing, i think i got a feel to the writing style and i like these two first characters. i know war and peace is infamous for how many characters are there but i hope these two appear again.
Looks like it's going to be a fun read. I'm reading the Constance Garnett translation, is this an accurate translation?
Anna Pavlovana describing Napoleon as the Anti-Christ is really interesting considering the amount of French they speak in this short chapter. Makes you wonder if they had any positive views on the republic at all, being older aristocrats, basically a conservative view on early 19th century French politics. With the incestuous ties a lot of European royalty have to one another, they (and their families) most likely lost quite a bit when the monarchy was overthrown. (the monarchy was better because we profited from it. etc.) Napoleon in their eyes could be a continuation of the Republic, usurping that power from the ruling class, which (if they had significant familial ties to the French Aristocracy) they would most likely detest.
It's interesting to note, that even though Napoleon is himself an Emperor just as the Tsar is, and even though he comes from higher birth (if only just) the aristocracy still sees Napoleon as an outsider, someone who threatens their power. I suppose any invading force would be seen this way, but i digress.
Also very intriguing how Anna Pavlovana (unsurprisingly?) sees Imperial Russia as the last bastion of hope for Europe, where everywhere else has submitted to Napoleon's rule. (I.E. Prussia) Even though England has also refused to submit to Napoleon they dismiss it, "England with her commercial spirit..." Anna Pavlovana believes in the power of her Emperor, she believes in the power that the throne holds, and that only the Russian Empire can stem the tide of Napoleon and the waning power of monarchy that comes with him. And possibly this is the reason she detests Napoleon so much? (Going back to the Anti-Christ line) That she believes in (Russian) Monarchy and Empire to such a degree that she can't fathom a world without such things.
The characters work great together, a fiery excitable Lady(? Whats the proper title there?) of the court and a jaded older Prince who is monotone and almost systematic in the way he speaks, always with the canned response. Great stuff.
Though I'm most likely reading to much into these things and definitely talking out of my ass. I'm just excited to read more of the book.
I'm reading questionable things about the Garnett translation. She was prolific, but a little sloppy. That seems to be the general consensus. It will probably be fine as I'm not familiar enough with Tolstoy to really get his nuances anyway, but if you're looking for a pretty universally acclaimed translation, I would go with Maude.
The conversation in this chapter gave me the impression that I was watching a sort of very precise dancing/sparring session; I felt tense just reading it. I think it was very effective in demonstrating the political and subtly transactional nature of even the most ordinary social interactions amongst the aristocracy.
I’m inclined to dislike Anna, but I really enjoyed how she was described in the chapter. Particularly her amused self-awareness and the way she smiles. I’m expecting her to be an entertaining character.
I’ll agree with several other commenters who conceded that Napoleon represents disaster to the Russian nobility while pointing out that Anna’s characterization of Napoleon (and Alexander) is hyperbolic and lacking nuance.
Love this... "a sort of very precise dancing/sparing session" -- I was also quite tense.
What a great description!
I'm also inclined not to like Anna as a person. She felt to me like a classic mean girl hanger-on who torments people to entertain the empress so she can keep her status. Fascinating character, but I have been the butt of the popular kids jokes enough that it was uncomfortable to read.
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the opening lines are legendarily bad (in terms of opening lines of great literature)... you did good by moving on quickly.
So many comments, I'm excited for all these readers! This is my second time reading, looking forward to doing it in sync with the podcast this time!
The line of the chapter for me was
"How can one be well—when suffering morally? Do you think it is possible, if one has any feeling, to remain calm in times like these?" asked Anna Pavlovna.
That line snapped me back to the present for a minute. Sounds like what people have been saying all year with covid going on. The Napoleonic invasion is to 1812 as what the covid invasion is to 2020. When Anna Pavlovna said to Vasily:
"You're staying all evening, I hope."
he should have responded, "Wish I could, but the British Ambassador's got a Zoom soirée (Zoirée?) starting at 8."
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Regarding Price Vasili's children- he has three: Hippolyte, Anatole, and Helene (the amazingly beautiful daughter). Lavatar is not one of his children, but a Swiss pastor and physician who related physiognomy to mental attributes. The two charming children then, are Hippolyte and Helene, not Anatole, who is not regarded highly by Anna Pavlovna.
About the "bloodline and pedigree" comment: did Vasili at the end of this chapter not basically just say that the other family is wealthy and that's all he cares about? He didn't seem to harbor any sort of interest regarding the family, and heard they were rich and said, "Good enough."
I absolutely love the way Tolstoy presents his characters. I felt like the chapter ended too quickly. The background of Napoleon-Alexander rivalry is quite interesting.
Nice. One cool thing about this book that you might like is that both Alexander and Napoleon are speaking characters in it. Minor characters but still important.
I wonder how Tolstoy implemented these famous figures in this novel. It seems that every line exposes the characters and their mindsets. Oh, and your Medium article is a really interesting and thought-provoking read.
My father, who read Crime and Punishment, Warner me that Russian novels were difficult to get through. Thus, I anticipated a slow start to this book, even if it built throughout the course of the story. Either my conviction to reading this at a slow pace has made me feel comfortable, Tolstoy is much different from Dostoyevsky, or another factor is at play, because I was captivated by these first few pages. The prose is wonderful, and I’ve decided to read it slowly and out loud to make sure I’m able to fully appreciate it. The characterization is also great—I really love Anna Pavolvna Scherer. And this chapter sets up multiple plot threads I’m interested in pursuing: the conflict with Bonaparte, the struggle between Vasili’s son and Baron Funke over the position of secretary, and a potential marriage between Anatole and Mary Bolkonskaya. I really expected to trudge through the beginning of this book, but I can tell it will already be difficult not to read too far ahead!
I read Crime and Punishment, and it was very hard to get past the first few chapters with all the names and Russian prose, but after getting over the hump it was a joy to read. Hoping the same for this one!
Never thought of reading out loud. Thanks for the suggestion!
Thank you to the mods who are making this possible!
I'm hoping Anna turns out to be the insert herself in everyone else's business type and even antaginistic.
The scene felt opulent. Suitable for the conversation.
A chapter a day is my goal to take my time amd fully appreciate (mostly from the help of others) the breadth of the novel.
So keen to get started! I'm unsure of Anna this far, in the first page she seemed a bit of a flighty socialite, however as the chapter unfolds it appears she has a lot more depth- I love that she informs Vasili to his face that everyone pities him for his son.
Ah!!! I am so exited!
All her invitations without exception, written in French, and delivered by a scarlet-liveried footman that morning, ran as follows:
“If you have nothing better to do, Count (or Prince), and if the prospect of spending an evening with a poor invalid is not too terrible, I shall be very charmed to see you tonight between 7 and 10—Annette Schérer.”
The prospect of reading this is not too terrible at all! The hard part is going to be not reading too far ahead.
Once you settle in to the little bite sized portion each day that urge will subside and you’ll learn to love sitting with it each day.
Yes, definitely. I also found that I enjoyed the first five months or so more than the rest of the year because I spent time on this subreddit. YMMV of course, but for me, the bite-sized portions and the online engagement make this a great exercise.
Happy New Year to you too!
Anna Pavlovna seems like the kind of lady to be on the good side of. This upper class world reminds me very much of Anna Karenina - these people seem deeply interested in politics and family connections. It's amusing how they like to use the French language to show their sophistication (says she who is reading a French translation lol).
Quite enjoyed that first chapter. Loved the general feel of the dialogue and how it's contrasted with the looming threat of Napoleon. Love how much character the whole "Napoleon is awful, but anyways my son needs to get married" dialogue gives. You get an immediate feel for both of them and their priorities.
Looking forward to tomorrow.
Also wanting to secure a job in Austria for his son, which even someone who is not overly concerned about Napoleon should see might become a dangerous place.
1) From this chapter and the chapters that follow it appears that in terms of nineteenth century ruling classes the Russian aristocracy might be among the most opulent and cosmopolitan. Multiple languages, lots of riches and comfort.
2) I like Pavlovna. One word? Sagacious. She senses exactly what Vasíli is up to, she knows what’s coming and how to handle it. With age comes wisdom I suppose.
3) If Alexander is Godlike then Napoleon must be the Anti-Christ.
I found that it was quite odd how it jumped straight into the scene.
Anna strikes me as a sly woman, she is very well connected and opinionated but also a very controlling hostess (pierre and his treatment comes to mind). I think she is potentially a character that could wreak havoc should she wish to.
I found the setting interesting a lot of character introductions with a huge amount of development. I have actually written down names and such and will be logging tid bits of info on how the develop through the book.
I'm curious about her influence and if she can "wreak havoc" as you mention OR if nobody really takes her seriously aside from her ability to move the socialites around like chess pieces (as I type this I realize there isn't much of a difference....)
Yeah, isn't that all that a powerful woman's ability could really be at that point -- using social prowess to influence people? I can see how one could initially see her as a sideline commenter/gossiper (who knows if she ends up doing a lot more later on), but (and maybe this is just because I just finished Little Women , which puts a lot of stock in a woman's role of playing the socialite) I saw her first bit of conversation as introducing a powerful and wily, if a bit too chatty, woman.
Maybe the chattiness will be her downfall -- you only have so many cards to play, and she does seem very blunt (telling the Prince she dislikes his kid) -- but who knows! I'm optimistic.
It seems to me that Tolstoy has a low opinion of the Russian aristcracy. They seem false, hollow, glamourous, excessively sophisticated, self-centered, obsessed with society.
2b. Busybody.
Anna strikes me as a wealthy busy body who makes it her business to know everyone else's business. She offers to make a match for Vasily's son. I get the feeling that she wants to do this not because she actually cares about either of the individuals happiness, but she gets a selfish satisfaction from having a hand in other peoples lives.
The setting is holding my interest. I like the fact the book doesn't go into too much detail about the setting, but rather throws the reader into the middle of a conversation between two main characters.
"My children are the bane of my existence." - Prince Vassily
This line just made me chuckle.
So excited to be back! Fell off last year around June but ready to see it through this year! Now that I’m somewhat familiar with the characters and things to come it’s very clear some things Tolstoy wants us to understand from the get go. For example, like how the love and devotion to the Emperor is to an almost religious level. I’m one of those heathens that highlights and takes notes in my books and I made sure to highlight all the times where Anna Pavlovna spoke about the emperor or Napoleon with language you might use to describe a deity or higher being and this chapter is bright yellow! This will definitely come up later so I think it’s interesting that it’s hit so heavy in this first chapter.
I also noted how well “practiced” both Vasilli and Anna Pavlovna are at saying but not saying what they mean. They’re both so used to this courtly way of speaking that you can tell isn’t always genuine but are able to communicate what they really want to know underneath the fashionable language. It feels very performative and vapid and we’re about to be introduced to some characters who absolutely hate this kind of thing.
Idk, I just love a good beginning to a story. There’s always set up going on that foreshadows things to come and this was no exception!
Nice to see your username around again!
Ander Louis is back doing the discussion threads! Glad to see you here for another year.
(this isn't meant to be any shade at zhukov, i was just surprised to see ander)
Thank you for getting this started again, I tried in 2021 and fell off after a few months so I’m here for a second try this year!
I’m a very introverted person and I feel like irl Anna Pavlovna would be a bit too much for me, I’m not into gossip.
I know from reading part of this book on the past there are some settings that I can picture pretty clearly in my mind and this is one of those.
I’m going to try my best, I know it isn’t the end of the world if I get behind a day or two every now and then
I. Does anyone know the reference, from Prince Vasíli, “Lavater would have said I lack the bump of paternity?” Presuming it's Johann Kaspar Lavater, what work might it be, and what's the meaning, in modern idiom, of, "the bump?"
II. Anna Schérer claims, "Buonaparte has burnt his boats, and I believe that we are ready to burn ours." I don't understand what stratagem there is, militarily, in burning one's own boats. What's the meaning of the expression?
Burning your boats means that when you land on the enemy shores, you do not beach your ships in case of retreat, you burn them to fully commit to the coming battles.
Alexander the Great is said to have done so when he landed in Persia, as did Cortez when he landed in Mexico.
Ahhh, thanks, I didn't get that reference whatsoever.
I assumed it was meaning something akin to burning bridges or self-sabotage.
I did a little research and found this explanation of "the bump",
Johann Kaspar Lavater (1741-1801) was a Swiss mystic poet and physiognomist, famous for reviving the idea that a person's physical appearance sheds light on their personality. Here Prince Vasili seems to be confusing physiognomy with phrenology, the discredited idea that character traits manifest themselves in bumps and dents in the head.
My version has an endnote about this:
“ J. K. Lavater (1741—1801) was a Swiss physiognomist, one of the forerunners of phrenology, a pseudo-science based on the idea that bumps on the skull indicate various mental capacities.”
Reading a bit on Wikipedia, it seems that phrenology did not really catch on in France , partly for political reasons. Is the reference to Lavater meant to be another contrast between these Russian high society figures and the French?
Also, for fun, I compared the Maude, the Garnett and the Pevear translations and they all refer to burning ones boats, so that reference probably exists in Russian as well as in English.
The Maude and the Garnett translations dispense with the French altogether, without any indications the character was speaking in French. The Pevear retains it.
I’m reading it in the original, and yes, the Russian uses the same phrase.
i’m reading a maude translation published by oxford university press and it has french with english footnotes.
I assumed he was talking about phrenology, where your head bumps determined your strengths and weaknesses and stuff.
Ah yes War and Peace. I really need to keep up this year...
Podcast link seems broken. Are these the same podcasts as last year?
Wonder why she doesn't like Vasily's youngest
Also, why wasn’t Vasily offended when she said this? Even if he didn’t like him himself, that’s still a rude thing to say.
I guess it's just how society worked back then. People put much more stock in how society views there family, rather than practicing "unconditional love" they way most western parents attempt to in contemporary society.
I agree, and it seems like it’s better for Vasily to agree with them rather than try and defend the son, otherwise they may view him as a fool and cast negative judgement on him too.
I got the impression that Vasily didn't like him much, either.
My impression, too. Actually seems like he isn't crazy about either son. My translation quotes the prince as saying "Hippolyte is at least a quiet fool, but Anatole is an active one." He has called them both fools.
The answer to this question will be made abundantly clear. Not for a bit though if you’re doing the daily reading reading schedule though. Enjoy!
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That was my favorite line too! It reflects deep cynicism and hypocrisy, as do other telling details like the “unexpectedly coarse and unpleasant” something that’s revealed when he cracks a more natural smile.
I’m really excited for this! So I read the first chapter, and subsequently listened to the podcast and realized my reading comprehension was terrible! It makes way more sense now!
I’m interested in hearing/learning more about the historical background in 1805 and the Wars of Napoleon
I found the podcast and discussion here really helpful, because I, too, misinterpreted or glossed over a few key bits of information.
Do you have a link to the podcast?
It's in the original post, but here's a direct link :)
https://www.thehemingwaylist.com/e/001-book-1-chapter-1-war-peace-audiobook-and-discussion/
Hey everyone!
What an awesome book and amazing reading experience. I've read War & Peace a few times and have help moderate here for a few years. This year I plan on stepping back and just participating with everyone. I'll try to keep my comments without spoilers...
Anna is such an interesting character for this book to open with. The glue that kinda keeps all these folks together. War is just outside their door, but the party rages on. How's that for a metaphor! Can't wait to read all your responses this year!! I do plan on reading a chapter every day.
Good luck to all and hope by next New Years, we're all a little closer!
It’s an odd first chapter where we don’t meet any of the principal characters, or even anyone we really care for. If this is your first time reading War and Peace, don’t be put off - it’s not all like this.
This is my second attempt at reading War and Peace - I failed pretty quickly last year to keep up. I enjoyed picking up new details from this chapter like the fact that Ana Pavlovna is only 40 years old. I had been imaging her as if she were in her mid 60s. My favorite line/description of her was.. "The subdued smile which, though it did not suit her faded features, it always played round her lips expressed, as in a spoiled child, a continual consciousness of her charming defect, which she neither wished, nor could, nor considered it necessary, to correct."
Same and same! I lasted a month or so last year so trying again now. And it was the same paragraphs that struck me as well - she sounds much older than 40, although I suppose 40 in those days was older than it is now.
I hope you stay with it! You’ll be very happy you did in December!!
(Take my ideas with a pinch of salt and please correct me, as I’m 15 and not exactly that knowledgeable of key themes and events hehe)
The Russian upperclass come across as typical stereotypes to me. They’re wealthy and speak about their children as almost objects, “banes” to Vasilly’s life. Gender-wise Vasilly’s daughter is praised highly, but both his sons are described as “fools”, which I think reinforces a general theme throughout most 1800 novels.
I think Anna is very opinionated and confident - especially when she says straight out that she doesn’t like Vasilly’s son. It shows she isn’t afraid to share her viewpoint and I think she’ll grow as a bold character that stands up for herself. She’s also seems to be Vasilly’s social superior and knows a lot of people and has many links.
I don’t really know much about Napoleon however from what I’ve briefly read and what the characters seem to say about him, he turned Europe upside down and opposed to the majority of people, especially the Russian. I was wondering why they were speaking French, it felt kind of ironic that they spoke of Napoleon as anti christ yet talked in his language.
To your 3rd point, many French nobles at the time fled to Russia to seek sanctuary from the turmoil of the French Revolution. As they joined Russian high society, so too did the language.
Also, Anna's brittle way of criticizing Vasilly's son may be less a sign of her self confidence and more a sign of her longstanding relationship with Vasilly making both of them comfortable with each other's forthrightness.
Addendum: Having read the first page again, I think this quote (last sentence of second paragraph) makes things clearer:
She was, as she said, suffering from la grippe ; grippe being then a new word in St Petersburg, used only by the élite "
Two things about this.
1) Russia's upper class seem to have taken a liking to the French language brought in by a wave of upper-crust French escapees. It's the new vogue, a way for Russia's nobility to flaunt their elite status.
2) Even the word "élite" is, by origin, is a French word, now adopted by Russia's nobility to retitle their own socioeconomic class
Ahhh I see thank u for the info on the nobles, I’ll definitely have to do a bit more background research. And I do see that now, I did notice they had quite a non-awkward personal relationship, that kind of emphasises it . Thank you!!
Good response
I don't understand the problem some people have with the opening sentence, sounds super normal to me.
I kinda lost interest already in some parts but that's fine since there are so many characters and situations to set.
I always tought the greatest pieces of art have to be critiqued on 2 bases: How well and comprehensibly they describe the human condition and how syntetichally.
While I'm sure this book is great at describing the human condition the synthesis part sure isn't there, but that's fine as long as the book will keep being entertaining.
I already had a similar experience with the brothers Karamazov, amazing depth and, while not concise, extremely interesting.
I stil think a shorter work that still has the same depth is superior, that's why I read Shakespeare's Hamlet and Dante's Comedy so many times, in those works every word is packed with crazy amounts of meaning.
Anyway, the 2 loser sons of slaveboy look like they re gonna be interesting, I hope there's some scene where they say some dumb shit at a party in front of all russia's nobility. And the "emperor of Russia" also looks like a great character.
I think the issue with the opening sentence is that in the same way Prince Vassily feels attacked by Anna's initial greeting, the reader feels overwhelmed by the heavy topic getting thrown at them. Once you get through that, the rest of the chapter dials it back a bit.
Previous comments inspired me to read a little bit of history on where women fit into society in Russia during this time period. It seems that there were a lot of changes in the previous decades for women related to property and inheritance rights and formal education. These changes happened fastest at the upper echelons of society and trickled down. The fact that these basic rights had only recently been enacted leads me to guess that there was not a high level of equality and it would be difficult for most women to achieve a position of formal power. I think we might be seeing Anna being set up to be a woman who wields great power and influence informally through her status and connections.
Women in Russia
Women in Russian society have a rich and varied history during numerous regimes throughout the centuries. It is important to note that since Russia is a multicultural society, the experiences of women in Russia vary significantly across ethnic, racial, religious, and social lines. The life of an ethnic Russian woman can be dramatically different from the life of a Bashkir, Chechen, or Yakuts (Sakha) woman; just as the life of a woman from a lower-class rural family can be different from the life of a woman from an upper-middle-class urban family. Nevertheless, a common historical and political context provides a room for speaking about women in Russia in general.
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I'm not fond of Anna... yet. We'll see. I'm coming from a Brit Lit background, so I'm trying (and probably failing) not to impose the character tropes from that genre.
For a sedate parlour conversation, this really has heavy hints of a lot of turmoil to come. I've only ever read about this war from the British side of things, but I know enough to see that things are going to get messy rather quickly. They're talking about war like it's not an immediate thing and as if their lives will continue unchanged if it happens, but really, they're already in the muck. They just don't know it.
I'm more concerned about not letting myself read ahead than aboutfalling behind! I've never read a book this way, but the exercise in discipline is welcome. I've added checking in here to my list of daily tasks, which will give me something to look forward to after checking off my less engaging items.
ETA: Thank you mods, for doing this! I don't think I'd be brave enough to embark on this massive book alone!
Thanks to all involved. I have read several Russian classics (including Anna Karenina) but not this one.
She strikes me as someone who's fun to read about but would be a nightmare to know in real life
I actually didn't really picture the physical setting at all, but I agree with the previous commenter who said the characters are acting as if war is still a distant prospect. It reminds me of how many of us felt about the pandemic when it first began in China.
I have a feeling I will struggle to keep to that exact pace, but will see how it goes
What's so nice is that even if you slip behind, chapters are usually short enough to catch back up.
Even from the first chapter there is a lot to grasp and a lot to learn. Anna Pavlovana seems to be smart and cunning. She gets what she wants by using other people and I think that is what we will see as the book progresses.
One chapter down. Great thoughts everybody. I love all these perspectives..
First of all, I'm reading Briggs and had no idea there were French passages. Seems like that robs the conversation of something, but it was easy to read, so... I don't know.
Obviously its difficult to pull anything too much from 4 pages, but one thing struck me that hasn't been mentioned. I find it interesting how close the problems of Europe/Napoleon's France are to Russian psyche (along with, I'm sure, their own domestic issues). This party is a bit like being snowed-in to your house or apartment. Its warm, comfortable, and calm, but just outside the thin glass of your windows is this harsh, brutal winter winds, snow and ice. (I am reading this on the shores of Lake Erie in Ohio where it is currently 4 degrees F, so....).
What a start!
I love that analogy!! What an image.
Hello, everyone! This is my first crack at War and Peace. I love the idea of a chapter a day.
My favorite line here was the description of Anna as “sometimes…enthusiastic even when she had no wish to, so as not to deceive the expectations of people who knew her.” That seems to me a quick but clever observation about how people manage their public personae.
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I agree about the accessibility of the Louis translation! When you read the Maude followed by Aussie, I was expecting to prefer the original, but in listening to the Aussie, even for one page, it gave me two or three moments of "Oh, that's what he meant!" that I didn't get from the Maude, or the Dunnigan that I'm reading. I didn't really understand what Anna Pavlovna's whole opening rant was until I heard you read it, revealing that she was just joshin with Prince Vasily.
To that end, I wouldn't mind hearing you narrate your translation on the podcast! I am reading a physical book while I listen (because otherwise I get distracted and lose the thread of the story), so I am getting both versions anyway. It's like reading with a little Babel fish in my ear. We can get a normal translation or an audiobook of a normal translation anywhere, but yours is unique. Plus the Aussie register is really more effective when it's spoken than when it's written. If people don't want to hear it, they can stop the podcast halfway through and read on their own, which some people have said they already do. Thoughts anyone?
Yes, I agree! I like the Aussie translation as well, and if there's people who want to listen to a traditional translation, there are recordings on the Hemingway List podcast from about two years ago.
I also love that line, especially the " but thought in " part. Brilliant.
I heard that when you get really fluent in a second language you start to have dreams in that language!
It happened to me just studying French in high school
Thank you! You can also download it for free on Project Gutenberg.
Excited to be here! I've been wanting to join this sub since 2019, and I'm glad to finally be part of the group.
I just finished the first chapter, which I'll admit I had to read twice to really get my bearings with all the translations and footnotes. I have read some classic Russian literature (mostly Dostoevsky), and it takes me a little getting used to. Things clicked me much more during the second read-through.
What are your thoughts on Anna Pavlovna?
One chapter in, and I would say Anna seems to be an interesting character. My initial impression is that she's well-connected, smart, opinionated, wealthy, theatrical, and maybe a busy-body. I'm wondering what the deal is with her opinion of Prince Vassily's children, particularly Anatole. I also get the feeling that perhaps arranging a marriage for Anatole was the whole purpose of this soirée?
What were your first impressions of the novel's setting?
This first chapter gave me a nice image of the 19th Century Russian nobility that is a feature in other classic Russian novels that I've read. I just get an overall sense of wealth and intellect. I'm always struck by how these nobleman and women could converse fluently in both French and Russian, and switch between the two mid-sentence, at times. Seems like anybody who's somebody can speak French in the Russian Empire.
Did you have a favourite line from Chapter One?
The one that stuck out to me was from Prince Vassily discussing the fete with Anna (V&P translation): "If they had know that you wished it, the fete would have been cancelled," said the prince, uttering out of habit, like a wound-up clock, things that he did not even wish people to believe. I really like how Tolsoty sums up the boring and insincere pleasantries all these rich Russians had to say to one another, which I imagine was often.
Excited to start this project!
Welcome back u/AnderLouis_ Good to see a familiar user returning to mod again. Here we are introduced right away into a Russian high society party. Anna is our host, and she’s talking to Prince Vasili Kuragin about Napoleon, Valsili’s children, and a potential match for his son Anatole with the daughter of old Prince Bolkonsky (another important W+P family.) The other guests begin to arrive.
I get the impression that these parties are just a game that high society has to put on in the name of status. There’s no real feeling to the conversations, and it all seems very fake. It’s as true then as it is today with certain social circles.
Just finished with the 2022 group; best of luck to this cohort - enjoy the ride!
Chapter one was a good example of “the personal is political.” Family and politics are absolutely intertwined for these folks, and Anna makes good use of gossip as a type of political and social capital. I actually liked Anna on first impression; she seems very gregarious.
In my translation the French is still in place, so I did my best to translate some words based on context, and then read the translation in the corresponding footnote. Kindle makes this very easy to do. There’s a lot of historical context within the footnotes, too, so it was good to get that historical and political background in the context of the dialogue while it happened.
Lastly, I was very impressed by the amount of history referenced in such a short chapter/few lines of dialogue. It had a slice of life feel to it, and conveyed that sense of dread one has when far-reaching political events are about to happen, but haven’t come home to roost yet.
I liked Anna too - not because she's a good person, but because I think she'll be an amusing character to watch. Very cunning.
Agreed. She was an interesting character to start the book with. It actually made it feel slightly less intimidating to start!
I found Anna Pavlovna to be quite insincere. She gives the impression in this chapter of being able to put on a bit of a show in order to get people round to her way if thinking. This seemed to be emphasized more maybe by the fact we are told that she is ill but even still she is acting in this way. I'm definitely intrigued by her character!
She seems to be a great character. Not someone I relate to at first glimpse, considering her extensive eloquence and apparent eccentricity, but we’ll see if that remains. I do see a connection with several of my family members however.
Ideal for “ballroom gossip”. I personally find the war aspect very intriguing, though I understand that it is of polarising nature. Having the war as a backdrop to the detailed lives of characters adds even more depth to a plot that is already much longer than the average novel.
“Hippolyte is at least a quiet fool, but Anatole is an active one.” The latter seems to be the majority in certain social media groups, and I think is a very applicable idea regardless of setting or time. In any case it contributes to the humour of Vasili insulting his own children
Anna reminds me of the standard gossipy aunty everyone has. I like her despite her being a bootlicker for monarchy, but I doubt that can be helped in this setting.
I grabbed a free copy of the Maude translation narrated by Thandiwe Newton on Audible. It's lovely.
Yes! My aunt is exactly the same, carrying conversations and having know-all about everyone and everything
Tolstoy introduces the society where this book will take place. A bit of a snowed-in metaphor. It's warm, cozy, and comfortable, as long as everybody pretends the snow, ice, and wind isn’t just outside their windows. That’s the Russian aristocracy and nobility in my opinion. Happy, but quietly aware of what’s raging just beyond their borders… how much longer will they stay warm?
Line: Anna Pavlovna speaking to Prince Vasili
Briggs: “How can one feel well when one is … suffering in a moral sense? Can any sensitive person find peace of mind nowadays?”
Maude: “Can one be well while suffering morally? Can one be calm in times like these if one has any feeling?”
P&V: “How can one be well … when one suffers morally? Is it possible to remain at ease in our time, if one has any feeling?”
Thanks for these comparative translations.
I think they’re really interesting. Hopefully I can stay on top of them. Pick one line and translate from three of the most used translations.
You've got this!
War and Peace! I've been... sort of following The Hemingway List since it spun out of this sub years ago but university quickly sapped the will and time to continue reading along. Seems like a great time to jump back aboard, though!
1) Anna Pavlovna strikes me as a good actor and skilled at political and conversational posturing - even though the narrator harps on about the Prince's demeanor and likens him to an actor several times, Anna seems to demonstrate it more deftly (though she does have a bit more to say than the prince).
2) I don't know a whole lot about this time in Europe, other than it was the beginning of a great many revolutions and general upheaval. Seems like the fate of Europe, according to Anna, is at stake.
3) I liked this line that illustrates what I mean above. Anna has an understanding of social situations and plays to them.
"To be an enthusiast had become her social vocation and, sometimes even when she did not feel like it, she became enthusiastic in order not to disappoint the expectations of those who knew her."
For 2. you're close, the main wave of revolutions had just passed, and the next one wouldn't be for another 20-25 years. We're currently right at the start of the Napoleonic Wars. The wikipedia page on the specific war that is being discussed is fairly detailed and a good starting point if you want to learn more!
I tried, I finished the first chapter, but it was very confusing. It's a hard one, and I should give it the exclusive reading time that deserves. Considering that I have another books to read, I think that I'll try the next year. Good luck everyone and a happy new year.
Listen to today's podcast, where we discuss chapter 1, and see if that helps!
my immediate thoughts on Anna are that she is a strong woman- she has a sharp wit and a natural intuitiveness. I have a feeling I am gonna enjoy her as we go thru the book
In this opening scene, Anna Pavlovna is having a soirée at her house in St Petersburg. It is the summer of 1805 and by her own admission, she is sick and has been coughing for many days. She has sent out notes informing her guests that “if they have nothing better to do”, they should come to her soirée and spend the evening with a “poor sick woman”. (It is strange to read this sort of invitation in the middle of a pandemic; if Anna had covid, she’d be having a super spreader soirée).
I don’t know a lot about the history of the Napoleonic wars but it is interesting that in the first paragraph of the book, Anna refers to Napoleon as the Anti-Christ.
I’m reading the P&V translation that leaves French conversations in French. It’s an interesting choice because it shows the type of “soirée” we are being invited to. It’s posh and high society and everyone there knows how to behave. They will discuss rather important topics (politics, war etc) in the most superficial way possible.
Not sure if I like Prince Vassily yet. He is described as having “grown old in society and at court” and speaking lazily like an old actor. Boy do I love these granular details, they add a lushness to the prose.
Prince Vassily describes his sons Anatole and Ippolit as imbeciles and wants Anna to help him find a wife for Anatole. Anna thinks of the daughter of Prince Bolkonsky (a rich stingy and difficult man) for Anatole.
This is my second attempt. Last year I got bogged down in the war section and gave up. I really enjoy Anna Pavlovna. The way she guides the conversation and totally shuts down the prince without him getting angry show a social skill I can only dream of. I love the setting in the posh parts of Russia. I didn’t have a favorite line but all the ones other people mentioned were great.
I’m already loving the self-aware vanity of the aristocrats. The way they talk is hilarious - I especially liked Anna Pavlovna reiterating how much she doesn’t like Anatole three times and Visili just being like “lmao I know right” dude he’s your son
Napoleon as the anti-Christ is a great line.
One, your enemies always get labeled as the most evil force ever.
Two, Napoleon does fit into a lot of the religious model of Satan. Charismatic, seemingly righteous, popular, but yet leads people by the thousands into sin and death. Hitler was a similar character. Napoleon didn’t have the ethno-nationalist bent but I think Hitler and Napoleon are very comparable human analogies to the conception of Satan.
Then to use the specific term “anti-Christ” is interesting. Satan tends to be more frequently as a being, some corporeal entity, whereas “anti-christ” literally means against Christ and what he taught.
So on one side you have Napoleon leading a mass campaign of slaughter and conquest for his own glory and glory of France, then you have Christ who was literally God and yet poured himself into a human form in order to be tortured to death to save all people.
I don’t think you could find much more antithesis.
calling Napoleon the "anti-Christ" also gives us an interesting view into the way that Anna views the Russian Emperor Alexander. There's a strong connection between the Russian monarchy - and the title of "Tsar" - and God. From what little I know of Russia history, the Tsar was seen as the sort of ruler and protector of the Russian Orthodox Church.
When that is your starting point, your enemies are very easily seen as the anti-christ.
The way the character speaks is so political. I'm not even sure if Anna actually likes or hates Vasily's children. I read that there are lots of french at the start but I didn't see that many french words. Is it also like this in the original russian, or did they also translate the most of the french into english?
My translation converts all the French into English and just make a note ( this is said in French )-- not sure if that's the best way, but works for me.
I saw something like that too in Maude translation, but there are still one or two french words here and there. Maybe they only translate full sentences?
My translation has several sentences and even a couple of paragraphs in full French. They're translated in the footnotes. I was wishing as I read it that I had a version in full English.
Surprisingly wasn't that hard to read, wanted to continue, but I want to follow with everyone else. It seems very formal, which I thought would make it hard to read, but it wasn't the case. Favourite line? "No, listen, do you realise that boy is costing me forty thousand roubles a year?" that spoilt little brat.
I didn't expect to jump into so much French right off the bat. However, that does give off a strong vibe that these are not the kind of people you're supposed to like.
Anna might turn out to be one of the people The Guardian article was referencing. At the moment she's reading like a Jane Austen character to me -- one of the busybodies that Austen's protagonists don't like. But maybe you end up wanting to spend time with her later in the book.
The introduction to my edition highlights Tolstoy's choices with language & desire to say things that are true, so those themes are of course already standing out to me in 1.1:
-use of French language by the nobility. From what I understand, this has to do with Peter the Great's westernization ~120 years prior to the setting of the book. I wrote myself notes about paying attention to who uses French instead of Russian and why, and what it means, socially, by 1805. I get there's a critique there from Tolstoy, but I think there's still interesting stuff to mull over there. It separates them from regular people who would only speak Russian, and connects them with their allies in Europe. But it also ties them to their enemies.
-this quote:
[cancelled party stuff]...said the prince, uttering out of habit, like a wound-up clock, things that he did not even wish people to believe.
A few times in this chapter we get assessments like this on Vassily & Pavlovna's behavior. This stood out to me because it's a great line, but also because I think it hits at something essential about the character of Vassily/people like him. His responsibilities and social role are at odds with his own desires, and he plays his part on autopilot (what a terrible mixed metaphor).
'If they had known that it was your wish, the party would have been put off,' replied the prince mechanically, like a watch that had been wound up, saying things he did not even wish to be believed.
This was the rendition in mine. I loved this part too! There's something very amusing about Vasily's flippance. He is obviously a character who is acting and speaking in accordance with what is expected of him. Though underneath, you wonder whether he is bored stiff by the machinations of high society!
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I've read this first chapter so many times and I just don't believe others' claims that you don't need to know about the history to understand the book. I don't know anything about this period of time so I'm afraid I'll be completely lost later on, just scanning the words but not taking in anything. I've heard people say (about W&P as well as other daunting books) to just barrel through and what's important will make sense with time but I can't help but be wary.
I feel exactly the same way to be honest. I googled “things you should know about reading war and peace” after my first run through with the chapter and it seeeemed to help a bit. I would love to hear input from someone who is re-reading this
Interesting to think this book was written over 150 years ago. My favorite line from this chapter was "[...] he is so virtuous and noble that God will not forsake him. He will fulfill his vocation and crush the hydra of revolution"
Looking forward to getting started! I’ve wanted to read this book for some time but the length of it was off putting. This looks like a great community and will give me the impetus to keep going with such a long book.
Me too - I’m optimistic! Also always feel reassured by reading the classics along with a community who can help me figure out the more obscure parts... feeling optimistic!
This is my third (I think?) attempt at reading War and Peace. First time I dropped off around May, last year, I don’t think I even made it until the end of January. I’m determined to stick to it this time!
Anna Pavlovna reminds me of some of my family members. She comes across as a bit of a gossip and someone who sticks her nose into everyone’s business, but also the kind of person who will tell it to you straight.
I don’t have too much of an opinion on the setting, but i do think it’s interesting that it was set 60-odd years before Tolstoy wrote it. Significant? I don’t know.
My favourite line is “I don’t speak of Anatole, your youngest. I don’t like him” and then “Do you know I am dissatisfied with your younger son?”. Something about the thought of Anna Pavlovna not liking a child made me laugh, especially since she’s essentially called him a dick to his Father’s face.
Great idea linking the podcast and Medium article in the thread!!!! PLEASE keep doing that
Done. Looking forward to reading Book 1, Chapter 2.
I was originally going to wait until /r/thehemingwaylist reached this book, but when I saw the thread going up I couldn't resist.
I looked around a bit for different translations, and I went with the Penguin Classics Briggs translation. He makes the point that almost all early translations were written by upper class women, which resulted in a certain flatness and awkwardness, especially in the dialogue of the lower classes and soldiers. Briggs gives the examples of a soldier reacting to someone losing their leg to a cannonball.
Dole: Oh, awkward one!
Weiner: Hey, awkward hussy!
Garnett: Awkward baggage!
Maude: Oh, you hussy!
Edmonds: Ah, you're a bungler
Bell: Ah, you brute!
None of these sound like anything a soldier would say in the heat of battle.
Plus, he translates all of the French! French is usually not a huge issue on the kindle as you just have to press the footnote usually attached to a French line. But still, it does get tiring when there is a lot of French. Briggs will just say "Pierre was speaking in French", which is what Tolstoy often did anyways.
It's always a challenge choosing between fidelity and what sounds natural, but I'm excited to read something on the more natural side. Briggs gives many more examples of phrases that sound awkward when translated with a focus on accuracy, and how you'd actually say these things in english.
I found the actual chapter a little confusing, trying to remember all of the historical details, the names and trying to internalize the footnotes. I feel like I need to watch a video on the napoleonic war or something. Still, I'm excited to continue the book!
By the way, Briggs' translation of that phrase was "Ooh! Nasty bitch that one!" lol
Haha, I love it!
Especially because theres yet another Anna!! But we'll muddle through it, shall we?
I'm with you. I didnt want to wait until the Hemingway list reached it - it's been covered twice already. So I hoped time 3 I wouldn't miss out on too much, but I feel like attempt 4 will lose some followers
I'm glad you'll be participating too! I'm sure we'll be fine, especially considering how the bite sized chapters are perfect for dense books
It's a bit self-defeating for him to pick this example – in isolation, Briggs' version looks like it would fit better than others but not in the context of the chapter. The soldiers are joking in the face of death and giving the impression it's just another day at the office for them. The soldier is admonishing the cannonball for inconveniencing a gentleman by almost knocking his hat off, 'Come on, next time better look where you're going', while the narrator briefly mentions that it in fact had hit a wheel and a leg of another soldier:
By ten o'clock twenty men had already been carried from the battery; two cannons were broken, and more and more shells were hitting the battery, and distant bullets were whirring and whistling. But the men at the battery did not seem to notice it; cheerful talk and jokes were heard on all sides.
...
— Oh my, almost knocked off our dear sir's little hat,— a red-faced joker cast a toothy smile at <that sir>.
— Sheesh, you clumsy,— he added reproachfully to the cannonball that hit a wheel and a man's leg.
The last line is the aforementioned one and Briggs translates it this way:
‘Ooh! Nasty bitch that one!’ he added, cursing a cannonball as it smashed into a wheel and took a man’s leg off.
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Oh, yes, you managed to put into words what I was struggling to articulate. Anna Pavlovna is definitely smarter than she pretends.
I agree with your take on Anna.
My favourite line: 'Is it possible to be at ease in our time, if one has any feeling?'
Very fitting for our own timeline as well, I thought, because I get really upset almost every time I watch the news.
Very much liked the first chapter, as in Anna Karenina too I just love the high society (unlike some others by the looks of this thread) and loved reading about these people. I don't really know what it is about it, the rules and elegance and French and even prententiousness just fascinate me. I quite liked Anna Pavlovana myself, not saying I'd like to be friends with her though. Love Tolstoy's writing too.
My favourite character in this chapter was Hippolyte. My favourite bit was in page 12 (in my copy at least): "'Because I hate ghost stories,' said Prince Hippolyte in a tone which showed that he only understood the meaning of his words after he had uttered them" and "he spoke with such self-confidence that his hearers could not be sure whether what he said was very witty or very stupid." Guess I related :)
Looks fantastic in this sub btw, cheers to whoever is responsible!
You may have gone further than the rest of us, I think chapter one ended just before the rest of the party arrived.
Oh what the hell, my copy is showing chapter two with the title "Pierre at Prince Andrew's", starting at page 22, assuming it's after the party.
EDIT: Well fuck, my copy has about 200 chapters, lost count around the end. So there's editions with different amount of chapters huh? Well I've got to figure out what the hell I'll do now.
You are probably reading the same version as me, published by Simon and Schuster in 1942 right?
The chapters are different for some reason, compared to other translations:
Chapter one in your version covers chapters 1-4 in other versions.
The first half of your chapter two (Pierre at Prince Andrew's) is chapter 5 in others.
The second half of chapter two and all of chapter 3 (Pierre at Anatole Kuragin's) comprises chapter 6 in other versions.
I presume the inequalities in the chapters continue throughout the whole manuscript, but on the whole, the "parts" and the "books" themselves should match up. If we use the date guide on the side bar, we should be able to follow closely enough.
Nope, Penguin Popular Classics from 1997. But yeah seems like they've just put together some chapters, I noticed know that when there's a space between two chapters that's probably where I should stop for the day.
Mine also has 15 books :))
Mine doesn’t have chapter titles, but there are still a few more at Anna’s party. It went to page 40 at least in my skim. Perhaps one of the mods could help.
This is my third read of War & Peace, so I won't offer opinions on things like first impressions. My comment for today though is one I made in previous years, and that is of Prince Vasily's odd gesture of taking the hand of someone else and "pressing it downwards for reasons best known to himself." There are other personality quirks that emerge in the book but this one is one of the (to my mind) weirder ones.
Taking someone's hand controlling it and contorting it into an unnatural position, and no one ever fights it, just helpless to his weird quirk...it fits so well with his manipulative personality. And it's so weird and particular I think Tolstoy must have met someone who did this.
I think Tolstoy must have met someone who did this.
Agreed. That seems like one of those things that are too weird to imagine, so you just have to see it.
Very good observation. It’s gonna be good to have you in the group.
I love this
Yes! It was surprising to me to see it happen so early!
wow, I never noticed it! how interesting
I'm modding /r/AYearOfLesMiserables this year, so I'll probably only be able to keep up with this sub in spurts.
1). So far she seems to be good at whatever it is she does. She seems to have made a lot of connections and keeps herself apprised of gossip. She also seems loyal to what I assume is the Russian royal family.
2). I am woefully unfamiliar with Russian history other than after 1900, so this unfamiliar context will be a challenge for me. Hopefully I will learn more about it in the novel and through knowledge-sharing in this group.
I was surprised by the start of the novel being the middle of a conversation, leaving the reader to infer what is going on. That seems like a modern technique.
3). I thought some of the stuff the Prince said about his sons was funny. I also highlighted this because it seems like such a strong belief must be important to someone's character: "The English have not understood and cannot understand the self-abnegation of our Emperor who wants nothing for himself, but only desires the good of mankind."
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Hey all, first-time reader here! Excited to be joining the club this year—hopefully I can keep up with it! Using the Pevear and Volokhonsky translation!
Much like u/Zhukov17 , I found this line to stand out the most for me.
P&V: “How can one be well … when one suffers morally? Is it possible to remain at ease in our time, if one has any feeling?”
Although the context of the line is different in the book than in my own life, I've been struggling with an overwhelming sense of dread this past year due to all that's been going on in the world. Although I'm fortunate enough to not be struggling too hard right now, I can't help but feel burdened on behalf of all those who are struggling right now.
That line just kind of reminded me that it's not necessarily uncommon to feel uneasy and anxious in times like these, despite my personal circumstances being alright.
Have fun reading! There are a lot of characters introduced at the beginning but the main ones will start to surface and the relationships will become clearer.
I think its interesting how involved the russian aristocracy is with French, and even the French emigrés, but at the same time seems to clearly despise Napoleon. Atleast Anna Pavlovana does.
And like some other people mentioned already Vasili really gives off a "Look, I've been through some shit, so trust me nothing phases me" vibe. Seems interesting. Not sure how I feel about Anna so far. Most of what I've taken away is that she seems very concerned about how people view her within the frame of the aristocracy.
Not to be THAT person, but since this is a literary sub after all I just wanted to let you know that it's "nothing fazes me".
Accidentally read the second chapter too. The book really seems fun and I dont feel lost as much as in other books.
Me too, I think? I had read the first chapter in another version previously, and when reading today, I was thinking “this seems much longer than I remember...”
Chapter 1: A rich dude and an old lady talk about how shitty the guy’s kids are. Also, fuck Napoleon.
Middle age not old
Pavlovna’s party is a good metaphor for the Russian aristocracy... it’s cold outside, snowy, windy, and a war raging in Europe, yet they continue to pretend all is well... they know there are troubles, but it’s best to just pretend.
Calculated.
As of right now, I like her, but only because I think she’s smart and I think she knows, better than most, how to operate in this environment.
Hi everyone! Trying to tackle this challenge after years of reading only engineering books and going back into fiction just last month. Even though I'm brazilian, I'm going with the english translation, mostly because it's public domain and probably better than the portuguese one (also a way to improve my english, of course).
I'm reading Dostoevsky together with this one (currently Crime and Punishment), so I hope to see both russian authors side-by-side. Right now, the most obvious difference is the setting: while C&P shows the poorest, vagrant and drunken bastards from society, W&P will probably show how the higher circles work. I'm interested into seeing how this contrast affects the actions and inner thoughts of the main characters.
So far, the line I found the most intriguing, aside from the several unknown names thrown out, is:
"But, with the womanly and courtierlike quickness and tact habitual to her, Anna Pavlovna wished both to rebuke him (for daring to speak as he had done of a man recommended to the Empress) and at the same time to console him, so she said..."
This encapsulates my first image of Anna, someone that knows the ins and outs of this environment and knows how to deal with each type of character to get what she wants. I'm also curious to see how is her relationship with the Empress based on this.
I really dont know . I'm coming into this book cold and all the background I know is that it's a very well-regarded and very long novel. I'll try to gather some more context through the linked podcast and what not. Initial impressions are that Anna seems to be one of those "smile to your face and talk shit behind your back" people but again i dont really know
On the novel's setting, it seems like we'll be in for a lot of very formal aristocratic settings like this. I'll learn a lot about it I'm sure, but to start with it's hard to follow with the various titles and relationships they mention
Favorite line:
You know I did all a father could for their education, and they have both turned out fools. Hippolyte is at least a quiet fool, but Anatole is an active one. That is the only difference between them
I dont know how signifcant characters hippolyte and Anatole are going to be going forward but it's an interesting and blunt introduction to them
Hmm, my translation says “Ippolit is at least a temperate fool, but Anatol is troublesome” seems like that is a wildly different interpretation to me.
I think it means in both translations that Ippolit keeps his foolishness out of the public eye, unlike Anatole, but thats the only difference between them. And for Vassily, public appearance is paramount.
Eh, true, but my translation seems to point to exact reason to Anatols foolishness, his excessive drinking, where as the the other translation kind of leaves it open to what his actual behavior is like.
Makes me eager to meet Anatole!
Little unclear about the historical context. Anna Pavlona becomes very somber when the subject of the Dowager Empress Maria Fyodorovna comes up. I'm guessing Empress Maria was recently widowed then. Is Alexander the new Emperor?
Yes, Alexander I was the Russian Emperor in 1805. Emperor Paul I, Alexander's father, was assassinated by a group of officers in 1801 but officially it was declared that the cause of death was a stroke and the assassins were not punished. It is thought that Alexander knew about the conspiracy beforehand but believed that the conspirators wanted only to arrest Paul and force him to abdicate. Understandably the relationship between the Dovager Empress and her son the Emperor was not great after this.
Very good background, thanks!
I disliked Anna Pavlovna almost immediately. She seemed like the real life relative who thinks she's being cute by following self-serving gossip with "never mind little harmless me".
I noticed how many names mentioned were not Russian in origin (including Scherer). I believe it was common for Russian nobility to marry Western European nobility. Was there a belief that emulating Western courts, including speaking French, was more refined? Notes said Abbe Morio was based on a Roman Catholic priest. I'm wondering if it's going to be clear in the book the relation of the nobility to Catholicism vs Christian Orthodoxy.
Hello all! I’ve never read the book but recently binged the series on Hulu and am kind of glad I did! While it would have been nice to go into the story blind, I really like that I have a face to put with the many Russian names. Without giving too much away I’ve always liked Anna’s character and it’s nice to see her in her element, dripping with jewels and influence.
I’m a huge fan of Tolstoy, so I shouldn’t be surprised, but I was definitely astounded in how much detail Tolstoy packs into what is such a small scene. It’s like you can’t help but feel their privilege, and he makes it seem so natural to them.
So far I’m liking Anna, she seems smart, loyal, fun.
And as for Vasily, he seems cool enough, I loved the whole “my children are — the bane of my existence.” Seems like he has a dark humor to me.
Of course both of them do seem like they’re the conniving sort, so only time will tell if my first impressions will hold up.
I love "you can't help but feel their privilege"; that's exactly how I felt. And it makes their conversation feel strained almost.
more importantly, if you miss a few days or even a week, pick it back up and catch up.... The sub will have inconsistent participation, but its always nice to see people sneak back in.
The pace shouldn't be too hard to catch up with. Good to know I won't be the only one.
I'm in. I did DQ last year. Looking forward to tackling this one.
Father Christmas bought me a clothbound Biggs version of War & Peace this year so I am looking forward to taking down this formidable beast. I broke my arm 4 months ago and rather than bingeing on screens I took my time, using various forums & podcasts with Ulysses. I then used the tremendous Cormac McCarthy sub for dissecting his latest The Passenger & Stella Marais. I am back to work now but want to keep up the classics tradition so hope to stay here for the year with War & Peace. I do not have any literature studies background but enjoy participating in discussions to bring books alive.
Thank you moderators.
1) I'm sure I've met Anna Pavlova somewhere, effortlessly hosting parties and gliding between groups watching me, equally effortlessly making faux pas' left & right, which I then replay & torture myself with before going to sleep.
2)Do you like this character? No because she is so good at being a social butterfly. I smell passive aggression in a fake fur coat.
3)We've landed in a very distinct setting, what do you make of it? I cringe because I've been there before (well almost), financially poor & out of my depth with the cool rich people. Once I was a Silver Service waiter to Princess Anne & co. and I eavesdropped on their conversations, and quietly farted.
Are you planning to do 1 Chapter per day all year, as is "a year of war and peace" tradition? Yes, thats the hope but life happens.
Excited, going to give this my best shot :) War and peace has been on my bucketlist for over a year now since i read Crime and Punishment. Good luck everyone!
Happy New Year and Happy Reading to all participants!
It's a very last minute thing for me to do, but I've wanted to read War and Peace for a long time. I briefly hope to try in Russian, but I realised pretty quickly, that my Russian, while pretty good, is nowhere near War and Peace level yet.
Anna Pavlovna gives us a lot of information and foreshadows quite a bit. I like people who knows all the gossips. And I love that she states at first she's not the kind of old maid to do the matchmaking and then jumps into in at the first opportunity :)
The world of Russian aristocracy is fairy tale-like opulent and quite exotic in my mind. I love to explore it more.
My plan is to do a chapter per day. If I'm not able to do so, I'd catch up and read 2, 3 chapters on the next day. Or so I hope.
Gossiper!
From our perspective no, but from theirs yes, they see his military progress as a slow moving but irreversible tide getting closer and closer.
I didn’t really have an idea what to expect beginning the book. I enjoyed the chapter, and I think it did well with drawing my curiosity to continue. The banter between Anna and the Price was excellent; intrigue and humor. I’m excited to see where this exchange goes during the party.
First off...Jesus, so many characters mentioned in so little time.
Honestly I felt like these two Russians were exactly the example for someone like Napoleon to even exist. They're weirdly and sexually undertones in such a full of themselves way that I was already rooting for the anti Christ.
I really didn't like Anna much, because she seems like she's never had to work for anything ever. She almost seemed like a sugar baby or something.
Is it just me or does the scene from the 1st chapter remind you the first scene from Godfather in some ways?
hmmmmm... in a way...
I agree, though I wasn't thinking that until I read your comment. A conversation between two people just moments before we the audience are brought in to a greater party and larger cast.
I have no idea what importance Anna Pavlovna or Prince Vasily Kuragin will have on the greater plot, but I love the initial scene in The Godfather with Don Corleone and the funeral director Bonasera. It reveals so much about the Don's character, as well as his place in this strange society which the audience probably knows little about, while also setting up an event which will be a tragedy for many other characters later on in the movie. I wonder if this opening scene for W&P will carry a different connotation after reading the whole book?
"Such charming children. And I must say you seem to appreciate them less than anyone. You really don't deserve them." And she smiled her exuberant smile. "What can I do? Lavater would have said that I have no paternity bump," said the prince.
This cracks me up. Just how they talk about their (or just his, in this case) children.
I remember doing a short report on phrenology in middle school thinking that any sane person couldn't possibly believe in this stuff. Yet they really really did for quite a while. 🤔
Thank you for this comment! I was wondering what ‘paternity bump’ meant. I just assumed it was some old/cultural language and didn’t think about it too much but I like actually getting the meaning now.
I liked Anna Pavolvna. She comes across as charismatic and influential. Sounds like everyone who is anyone knows her and she knows anybody who’s a somebody. She also looks like someone who is used to getting her way, given the way she spoke with such confidence and knowledge. I loved her dialogue.
Seems interesting enough that I’ll be back tomorrow haha.
‘I think,’ said the prince with a smile, ‘that if you had been sent instead of our dear Wintzingerode* you would have captured the King of Prussia’s consent by assault. You are so eloquent. Will you give me a cup of tea?’ This felt like a fitting response after her passionate speech.
Read it! Love the minute observations of gestures, tone of voice, flattery, throwing in French words - all the little (fake?) ways people perform their roles in society. That went fast.
Here is my favorite line:
“I must say all these celebrations and fireworks are becoming rather tedious”
I guess you could say I identify with Anna Pavlovna quite a bit, here.
She’s just salty that there’s a competing social event while she’s throwing a party.
Excited to read more!
I love how these characters have only been in each others presence for maybe 30 minutes, and already they are attempting to make such large arrangements. They are essentially just bartering, the way Anna is like "listen I'll set up your boy but you're supplying the food and board when I'm an old fart". Says a lot about the priorities of high society folks back in those times.
I'm a bit worried that my lack of knowledge about the time period will affect my enjoyment of the book. Rereaders: think I should look up some supplementary stuff or truck on?
Good start to the book. Anna Pavlovna strikes me as a character that'll be fun to read in the beginning, but as the plot marches on and more complicated political things start happening around her she gets more frustrating.
I did AYOWAP 2018, knowing absolutely nothing about the period and I think it helped with my enjoyment, as I didn’t know what was coming next. There’s a lot of real historical action in this book, interspersed with the “soap opera” of the (not all) fictional characters. I loved it, stick with it and you’re in for a treat.
How many of the 18 group is back I wonder?
I don’t know if I can commit to a full re-read this year. I might do Middlemarch as I’ve struggled with that book in the past. I did like popping in to this sub occasionally last year to see what people were saying about certain sections of the book, I almost wish I was reading it for the first time again!
The linked podcast spends about 15 minutes discussing the content of this first chapter and includes some information about the historical context.
I have the Oxford World Classics copy of the book (in hardcover, which I love), and so far I’m a big fan of the explanatory notes: they give helpful context without distracting from the story. I bet there are some good annotations online too.
Read the first chapter, then came here to find that my chapter 1 ends well after the final line posted here. Page 7 vs page 22...
This is my first time reading (hopefully) although I have started before and not finished. I am reading the Briggs version. I will likely start with one chapter a day but eventually try to read ahead. A chapter a day will keep me on track though to prevent stalling like my last attempt. So I may read ahead but I am committing to finishing this year!
When I read this chapter the first time I found it boring but because I have read part of the story before I find it much more interesting now. I find Anna entertaining but I really dislike Vasily off the bat. I question whether Anna is a true believer or just trying to maintain her place with the empresses by praising the Emperor. She speaks of him like he is a god with her worshipful tone. It feels fake to me but I may just be reading in my own bias. I think it will take more chapters to know if it is authentic.
I feel like I don’t have enough background knowledge of the history to truly appreciate the setting but I often enjoy learning through fiction so as I read I may be spurred to research more. I do feel like even in this first chapter there is a lot learned about how the aristocracy in Russia functioned so I enjoy that. The irony that they are speaking French while fighting the French is quite rich.
So this is my second time reading it, & a lot of things appear to come together that I didn't notice my first time. I'll try to avoid spoilers & stick with general themes.
Russian-ness & Russian identity: note who speaks French, who uses French versions of their names. Watch out for how these evolve as the story progresses. I am originally from India, where many of the educated upper classes speak to each other in English, the language of our erstwhile colonial oppressor, & an English-language education & the resulting English fluency remain social markers of education & sophistication. So this really resonated with me.
Kuragin's discussion of his children, & Anna's mention that he has "two good ones." His beautiful daughter, so admired by Anna.
The opening sentence immediately puts the reader in a particular time & place. 1812 is such a momentous year in Russian history, & we immediately realize that is what we are heading towards in this story. W&P began to be serialized in 1865, 53 years later. For modern readers, this might be like reading a book or watching a movie/TV show set around 1964. It's history, but there are plenty of people around for whom it's a living memory. A couple of decades later, Tchaikovsky wrote this about the same events.
I'm so interested in your take on the class issues within the novel as time goes on - I found your first point about modern upper class India really interesting.
Sorry to be dense - where do we think Chapter 1 ends? With the end of Part 1, Section I? Ending with Anna agreeing to talk over a marriage match with Lise? Or does Chapter 1 end later?
I’m a bit confused by what you mean. Do you mean volume 1?
Edit: specified which volume in title of post
Sorry - in the Pevear edition, it is Volume I, Part One, and unnamed section I.
In the Garnett 1994 Modern Library edition, it’s Part One, unnamed section I, which goes from pages 1-5.
There’s nothing in either of these editions specifically referred to as a chapter.
So are we going to read the sections identified by the Roman numerals as chapters? Each section as a chapter?
Don't think I can help you. Have a different translation
I think it's interesting that Napoleon is considered an antichrist in Russia (or at least to Anna) while the Russian upper classes are simultaneously borrowing heavily from French higher society - assuming that I'm talking about the right Napoleon, he was the one who rebuilt after the French Revolution, which would have and did see the (temporary) end of nobility and fashionable higher society in France. I'd be curious to know if Russian attitudes towards Napoleon were always negative, before he began to pose the threat of war, because for someone who loves to imitate French society you'd think that Anna would have originally felt positively about him, before talks of burning boats were a concern, due to his building up of imperial French culture and such. Otherwise they'd have no wealthy French social cues to follow
Also, I'm kind of unclear as to how prince and princess titles are used, but since Anna is speaking to someone with a title it might be in her best interests to fanatically play up her esteem for the monarchy - while Vasili feels free to voice some questioning of their judgement, for Anna to do so might come across differently, especially as one of them is her patron lol. It's in her best interests to appear worshiping towards the hand that feeds her
btw I have the maude translation, if that makes any difference. my chapters are split up a little differently as well
The titles “prince” and “princess” alone don’t generally connote members of the ruling family (look for “grand prince” or “grand duke” for that, depending on translation), though they do connote members of the aristocracy, who may or may not (depending on several factors, including money and connections to the ruling family) have a level of influence.
“Anna Pavlovna, on the contrary, despite her forty years, overflowed with animation and impulsiveness.”
This could have been describing me precisely and I love to have such a quick connection with a character.
I was also jarred by the opening and I was wondering what I had gotten myself into. I was relieved to find this was merely the first paragraph and the writing improved once I got past it.
“Why do men like you have children? If you weren’t a father, I could find no fault with you”
This is my first time reading War & Peace and I’m already pleasantly surprised by how witty the dialogue is. I’m really looking forward to the year ahead. Here goes!
Well this wasn’t so bad 😂 I’m looking forward to this journey ☺️
Just wanted to come by and say good luck and have fun to anyone reading the book this year. I loved it last year and hope you all pull through this unique experience!
Anna Pavlovna seems like an interesting character, although I am not quite sure what I think of her yet. She seems very bluntly spoken.
I'm curious to see more about the setting. I don't know a lot of history so there seems to be a lot of prince and princesses. I think there will be a lot of politicking.
Hello everyone! I have been contemplating reading War & Peace since last January and almost bought it several times last year. I was browsing Barnes & Noble tonight and thought today would be the best day to give this a go.
As one can tell by my username, I love Russian culture so I am excited to dive in. Anna seems like a woman who knows what she is doing. She is is direct and to the point.
YAY! We’re happy you joined us!
Anna Pavlovna seemed interesting, like a character that identified themselves by the high society that take part in over anything else, I saw someone else talk about how the use of “Buonaparte” instead of Bonaparte is a good example, interested to see if she is a static or dynamic character of the book, change herself or changing others
I find the setting interesting, a lot of the classics I have read take place in the napoleonic era, but never in Russia before, the high society also elicits a lot from me, It makes me want to play classical music
3.”to you alone I can confess that my children are the bane of my life. It is the cross I have to bear. That is how I explain it to myself.” I am always interested in seeing how characters deal with burden, especially when tradition and society pressures them
Hey! Excellent job with the audiobook, sir. I was skeptical about if I could understand which part of the audio was quoted and which was narration, but I love how you change the pitch of sound a little to indicate that. I guess I've to trust audiobooks more, haha. Sadly, I haven't received the physical book yet, it's on it's way. So I just listened to your audiobook, and I was pleased!
So far I'm really impressed with the starting chapter, I love how short it is. And I read somewhere that War and Peace has the worst starting and ending of a big novel ever. But I think that's so not true for the starting at least!
Plot wise, I've only one doubt, about the children of Price Vasili. Anna says the prince has two children and then names them both.
I don’t speak of Anatole, your youngest.
Hippolyte is at least a quiet fool, but Anatole is an active one.
These two seem like his sons, but before this, Prince says
‘My daughter is coming for me to take me there.’
So he has two sons and a daughter? If so why does she says he has "two" charming children? I'm sure I just missed a sentence or two, haha, please clear this little doubt.
Thanks for the efforts!
He says two charming children because the third is an a-hole : ))
Yes, two sons and a daughter. Anna likes the older son, Hippolyte, while purposefully saying Anatole sucks. The prince assures her that in fact both sons suck. He doesn’t say how he feels about his daughter specifically, but she might be lumped into his confession that his children are the bane of his existence (my favorite line of this chapter). In his defense, his children really are awful, but that’s probably because the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
Personally I like the opening scene, but the ending... we’ll see if I feel differently this year.
And I read somewhere that War and Peace has the worst starting and ending of a big novel ever. But I think that's so not true for the starting at least!
Enjoy the opening, because the ending is bad enough for both of them (-:
I liked both of the characters we see in this chapter, although I'd much rather hang out with Anna (at least I think). I've heard that both of these characters are unlikable, so I guess we'll see how Pavlovna turns out, but in any case, I'm generally I'm very much in favor of unlikable characters; Stepan was probably my favorite character in AK.
Considering the title has "war" in it, about a literal war , the opening is pretty much the opposite of that.
really excited for the times to come
Happy reading everybody! I discovered this sub after finishing up Monte Cristo last year and searching through Reddit to read some discussion. I came across the areadingofmontecristo sub which lead me here. Super great timing. I'm really happy to have a reference point to any heavy bits or parts in particular relating to wars and parts of history that I'm not so familiar with.
If anybody has any tips for any wiki articles or light reading that will help with the setting, it'd be much appreciated.
Looking forward to reading all of your insights throughout the year, here's hoping we can all stick with it :)
High society seems like a closed "ecosystem" for the Russian elite, as they share their connections and matchmaking opportunities through parties, banquets, galas , fetes and private meetings such as the one between Anna and Vasili.
Anna strikes me as having a "Type A" personality, but it seems she does it because she has to:
" To be an enthusiast had become her social vocation and, sometimes even when she did not feel like it, she became enthusiastic in order not to disappoint the expectations of those who knew her."
Describing Napoleon as the anti-Christ seems harsh, but I just know the barebones of his conquests in Europe.
Excited to be moving forward on this!
What are your thoughts on Russian high society?
Very dry. I feel like they talk at each other rather than to each other. The dialogue felt like they're always trying to one up each other.
Who is Anna Pavlovana and do you like her character? Describe her personality in a word.
Strong character. In a word. Bitch.
Is it fair to describe Napoleon as an "anti-Christ"?
Fair assessment I'd say.
An anti-Christ would have supernatural powers; so it's not accurate, thus not fair.
Just want to say how excited I am to finally tackle this book. I remember finding this book in my basement years ago but I don’t think I could’ve gone through it without a group like this to help.
Loving the personalities that are present in the characters so far. There’s a great contrast of vividness and bleakness in this chapter. Makes me want to read ahead but I will remain strong.
I love you all and I’ve never met any of you
What are your thoughts on Russian high society?
People living outside their means to keep up appearances.
Who is Anna Pavlovana and do you like her character? Describe her personality in a word.
Mercurial. Where do her loyalties lie?
Is it fair to describe Napoleon as an "anti-Christ"?
For the characters and for the society, yes. Napoleon subverted the world order. Might makes right. Anna's description of the piety of the Emperor Alexander, and as /u/ThatFireDude has said, conflates the Emperor with God. Napoleon, as the antagonist, is therefore best described by Anna as the anti-Christ, destroying all that God and the Emperor cherish.
Interesting first chapter. Seems to me that Russian high society operates like most other wealthy/ aristocratic societies in that marriage is an important factor in elevating your social standing. Vasily is happy with the proposed marriage of his son because the girl is from a respected family and this will enhance his own families reputation (which, I assume is well respected already).
I expect there to be a lot of scheming, political and personal between the characters in the book, based on the first chapter.
Anna is in a word Cunning. Seems like the type of person who is good company, if a bit inauthentic, putting on a sort of front in social situations. Perhaps the real person behind all the bravado is quite different. I feel it would be unwise to make an enemy of her.
I was surprised that when Anna was critical of Vasily's parenting skills he agreed with her, instead of being offended. I think her comments would be considered quite hurtful in modern society.
I made it through chapter one and then jumped into this thread and hot damn, I can't believe how great this discussion is! I had expected this to be a fun endeavor with a little bit of support but the response here is honestly next level and has helped me understand the chapter a lot better. My enthusiasm (now my social vocation?) has tripled.
E started a bit late but oh well
Are non native English spearkers going to read it in English or in their native language?
What would you guys recommend?
My native tongue is portuguese but I'm reading on my Kindle the Maude translation, like most here I believe. I'm just in the middle of Crime and Punishment, also translated into english, and it hasn't been a problem so far.
I’ve read it in German as a teenager but will read it in English this time around.
This is interesting. I dont know much German, but have the impression that the tone of the German language is very different from English. I wonder if the different translations reflect that.
I read it in English, as I feel like the Dutch translation will be even more alien.
I'm Indonesian but I read this in English. I don't think Indonesian translation exists.
This first chapter reminded me of Jane Eyre and Pride and Prejudice in both tone and setting.
Curious to see how the matchmaking will go.
Definitely Jane Eyre vibes! Pretentious people and their pseudo-polite conversations.
It is true that this book has a terrible opening line. Apart from that, I'm looking forward to doing the read with everyone!
I don't know much about the Napoleonic wars beyond the broad strokes, but I like the sense of dramatic irony, where they make references to Napoleon as a distant threat while us in the audience know it will soon become a very real one for Russia
They not only spoke a "refined French", they thought in French!
A telling comment.
So excited to get started! Got off a plane and rushed home to read the first chapter.
It was pretty readable to me; I'm using the Penguin Classics/Briggs version. Anna Pavlovna's "I'm not a matchmaker BUT-" attitude was amusing.
I'm a highlighter, and these are the lines I marked this chapter:
-"Can any sensitive person find peace of mind nowadays?"
-"Sheer habit made him say things he didn't even mean."
-"They say she's as beautiful as the day is long."
-"I often think that good fortune in life is sometimes distributed most unfairly."
I liked how abruptly the book seemed to start. Like we're beginning in the middle of the story; I'm sure we'll have some of the past begin to unravel soon. Overall, this chapter was an interesting start to the book, and I'm glad to be reading it with you all!
So many names.
I'm not sure if I like Anna, but I sympathize with her and find her very interesting. Her whole sickness that she describes using "fancy" terms. I'm guessing this is TB? Then the part where she feels this expectation to be enthusiastic even if she's not feeling it naturally. Seems like she has a lot of pressure to perform and entertain for others and may put her own needs last, despite her outward expression of vain popularity.
My favorite line is from Prince Vasili: "You know I did all a father could for their education, and they have both turned out fools. Hippolyte is at least a quiet fool, but Anatole is an active one."
At first this made me laugh and I immediately loved him for his great sense of humor and humble self deprecation. But as he went on to talk about the seriousness of his problem with Anatole, I felt so bad for him. It honestly made me think of my own fears of having children. Yikes.
'Grippe' means flu.
Thank you!
So far, so good! I'm really liking Ana Pavlovna's chatacater, she seems peculiar. A woman in a position of power, enough even to influence military choices. I'm excited to see how it plays out.
The setting so far seems like the "Peace" part of the title! Cant comment much on that.
And favorite line.... I must admit, I like the first line. It's a differential from how we are introduced to books - especially classic lit. We're already supposed to know a whole lot of things from history, and when we do, its satisfying to understand all the references.
Chapter 1 complete!!
She’s interesting, so far. Hopefully we’ll learn more about her and her friends tomorrow. There’s going to be a party, and some very important people are invited.
Finished the first chapter. Going in completely blind. Not sure what to make of Anna Pavlona yet, but let's get the matchmaking started!
So, I’ve never tried to read this before and I just found this group through r/books and thought it sounded like a fun idea so I’m looking forward to it. I like politics and it seems like this novel is set among the political elite so that sounds fun. Anna seems like a bit of a gossip but she seems nice enough. I don’t know what to say about the setting. I don’t know much about Russian history and even if I did I don’t know when this is set yet so basically, I’m a little lost for the setting but it seems intriguing so far.
I think you’ll like it. It features a lot of politics and international relations. If you want a reader’s guide check out my eBook, based on the linked Medium articles.
And so it begins! Thanks to the mods for the helpful links and the thought-provoking questions. As I said in the Monte Cristo reading group a few hours ago, I am approaching this novel without prior insight, so my comments likely fall in the spectrum between naivety and codswallop.
Someone in another reply used the word vapid to describe the characters, and I think that is a perfect description. Meeting these people and having to ingratiate oneself to them would be awful.
My favourite line was a comment from the prince: "Tell me," he added, as if just recalling something and with special casualness, though what he asked about was the main purpose of his visit ...
That sums up my initial assessment of Vassily, and by proxy, Anna Pavlovna. They aren't hosting or attending the event because they want to, but because they "have" to, or because they perceive some benefit from their attendance. This doesn't make them bad people, but it does make them people that I am not going to be naturally predisposed to liking. It will be great to see how this evolves or changes throughout the reading this year.
“because they have to” — I love it!
My first impression of her isn't a positive one to be honest. Hopefully she'll grow on me!
I really like the setting of the story as the looming war adds a certain tension.
Yes!
I like her!
I'm going to try and watch some documentaries about Napoleon as I know literally nothing.
I'll probably end up reading it in fits and starts. Not finding it as hard going as I expected.
Thanks for starting this thread! Really excited for this journey!
Anna Pavlova is a gossipy thing! What are your first impressions? Do you like this character?
Undecided, it's hard to tell from this interaction if she's just an exuberant and helpful friend or someone without boundaries who becomes frustrating to deal with. You get the feeling that she feels pressured to maintain a certain amount of enthusiasm which isn't a reflection of her true nature.
We've landed in a very distinct setting, what do you make of it?
It sounds like we are in Pavlova's home. I believe this is supposed to be located in St Petersburg. It sounds like she is supposed to be fairly comfortable and that marriage wasn't a necessity for her.
Are you planning to do 1 Chapter per day all year, as is "a year of war and peace" tradition?
I'm hoping to do a chapter a day, but, I imagine I may miss some days and have to play catchup.
I found it interesting Prince Vassily's children have ancient Greek names and that Vassily is the slavic form of the Greek name Basil.
Thanks so much for this post!
It’s my second time trying to read this book. The first time I only got so far as 100+ pages and never really progressed further.
Anna seems like a total meddler! It'll be interesting how she possibly influences the lives of these aristocrats.
I'm not too familiar with the historical events around which this story is set, I see opulence and a calculating high-society...ripe for drama already.
I would like to do a chapter per day! It seems like a lot since I'm not so much an every day reader, but it'd feel like a big accomplishment to finish in whatever way that pans out.
I'm starting this with the Briggs translation. I have the P&V, but just find Briggs that bit more accessible. 1) Anna seems like she knows exactly how to work a room, manipulate people - not always maliciously, just in terms of society and how and where people need to fit in it. 2) Not sure about the setting yet. I feel it's grander than I'm imagining it to be though. 3) I think I'll aim for a chapter per day, but see how I go!
1 - I love Anna Pavlova and her cunning ways! They way she shifts the conversation in the direction she wants, knows how to play the rules of Court and steer the people in them is so fun to watch.
It's entertaining the small digs she throws at Vasilli:
"I often think how unfairly sometimes the joys of life are distributed. Why has fate given you two such splendid children?" [Maud]
2 - The setting packs a lot, Napoleon is fighting Europe, people are taking sides and the military has been in action already for a few years. It seems that those not at the front are equally engaged with what is going on on the battlefield.
We also get this interesting set-up for the court of Russia to be clock-like and just going through the proper emotions. I thought this quote about Vasili was very telling:
"[Vasilli], who, like a wound-up clock, by force of habit said things he did not even wish to be believed." [Maud]
3 - Definitely doing a chapter a day! I fell off in the middle of last year but I'm excited to follow through all the way this time! It's such an amazing book and the discussion on the subreddit keeps it incredibly engaging and fun 😊
Side-note: This quote always makes me laugh --> "Ippolito is at least a quiet fool, but Anatole is an active one"
Man, took me a while to fall into a rhythm of reading, looking down for the French translation, and then looking in the back at the annotations.
Hopefully tomorrow I'll be able to find a quitter moment to read, outside distractions might have been the problem (I also slept till 3pm).
I'm split on Anna, think I'll need a bit more to decide if I like her or not
Yup, I switched from PV to Briggs for precisely this reason. I highly recommend a fully English translation like the one I have for any War and Peace fans.
I'm sort of torn. Reading P&V with the French thrown in myself. It's a bit distracting having to bounce back and forth, but it feels more true to what Tolstoy intended including them. A major tone of the book is that Russian society is borrowing too heavily from the French culture.
Yeah, that's a major factor why I ended up going with this translation (also availability). Think I'll continue for now and switch if it gets worse
There are other translations which change the French to English, but indicate the original language. I thought Briggs was supposed to have done this, but perhaps not.
I'm reading Briggs. I had no idea all that French was in there.
Yeah, the endnotes make it super tedious. I often give up on them unless I'm super lost (I did not finish Infinite Jest partly due to this issue), but I'm going to try and make the most of this. I'd rather have the annotations as footnotes, even if that makes each page half story, half notes.
I wonder, how much actual influence do people like Anna (or... Rasputin) have on present and past world leaders?
"Novolsiltev's Dispatch" is mentioned and I'm afraid I don't know who/what/where Novolsiltev is. Could someone enlighten me? Thanks!
In the P&V book, it says "in 1804 - 1805 England, Russia, Austria, Prussia, Sweden, and the kingdom of Naples planned to form a coalition against France. Napoleon, learning of the plan, made an offer of peace to England. England asked the Russian emperor, Alexander I, to mediate in the negotiations, and he sent his special emissary, Novosiltsev, to Paris for that purpose. On reaching Berlin on 15 June 1805, Novosiltsev learned of Napoleon's taking of Genoa and Lucca, sent that information in a dispatch to the emperor, and remained in Berlin. No peace was concluded, and in the fall of 1805 war began between France and the Austrian-Russian coalition."
I think the Russian high society seems very high-and-mighty. Anna seems to be blinded by her loyalties, particularly to the emperor. I did enjoy the chapter, though, and I am looking forward to reading more.
Anna came off to me as pretty needy and overenthusiastic, which matches well to how she's described. She is a bit mean, though, complimenting Vasili's daughter before saying that he's a bad father and doesn't deserve his two oldest kids. Now that I'm writing this though, I think her strategy was to get him the back foot complaining about Anatole, so that she can play matchmaker. Her assertion that she doesn't "feel that weakness in [herself] yet" is false, I think. I also noted that Vasili keeps ignoring her questions, and Tolstoy mentions several times about his air of indifference when he speaks, so I think that he's onto her game for a while until she brings up his family.
Also, we hear a lot about Anatole, a bit about his daughter (who I assume is Hippolyte?), but nothing about his oldest son. It'll be interesting to learn more about him, if we do.
I was confused about the leadership of Russia at the time of the first chapter. The mention the Dowager Empress Marya Fedorovna, Emperor Alexander, and a late Emperor. Is Empress Marya the widow of the previous Emperor? If so, how much power does she still hold now that there appears to be a new Emperor? There's an implication that she has some, or at least some influence, as she's planning to appoint someone to an official position.
Interesting start! I'm looking forward to reading more about the party!
Also, we hear a lot about Anatole, a bit about his daughter (who I assume is Hippolyte?), but nothing about his oldest son. It'll be interesting to learn more about him, if we do.
Hippolyte is his other son, I feel, not the daughter.
There's a section in the Bible that talks about the Anti-Christ being a person who unites the world - so for a society that would have been (at least nominally) Orthodox Christian, they would have definitely been familiar with that reference. I suspect Anna was being maybe a little glib about it, but I know in other European historical references, there were religious leaders who were genuinely concerned about it. I expect someone like Anna Pavlovna would be more like "This is not good, but I'm rich, so I'm sure I don't need to personally worry, just politically".
-1. Stuck up, erratic, cultured, emotional.
If I had to gauge its level of pretentiousness: between post-1600s English high society and feudal Japan. The latter being the strongest.
-2. I like Anna. I think she is deeply naive as to both her region's politics and Prince Vassily's intentions towards her, though. Vassily said a few times that he was her "faithful slave," but in reality she is the faithful slave. I suspect a bad conclusion for her psyche, if not entire career.
-3. I have no idea. But I think so. What I know about Napoleon was learned in high school. I will keep this question at hand.
Hello, everyone! Looking forward to reading with you all this year.
I agree that the first few sentences were vary jarring, but the rest of the chapter was better. I instantly got a feel for both their characters, and I liked the way Tolstoy described the subtle social dance they play and the way their facial expressions and tone changed throughout the course of the conversation (I'm reading the Maude translation, by the way).
Vasili felt like a deeper, more realistic character to me. Anna Pavlovna's long, devoted political speeches felt clumsy and not really believable - I'm not sure if this is just Tolstoy being a bit ham-fisted with his themes, or if it's a translation issue, or if we're actually supposed to read into this as a part of her character. It almost comes off as insincere, like maybe these aren't her true opinions and there might be something else lurking beneath the surface.
Hello all. Looking forward to this book club! I made it maybe two-thirds through WAP summer after my freshman year of college, forgot to bring it back to school, and forgot to finish. This was 15+ years ago, so I'm a pretty blank slate. Happy reading!
I felt a rather interesting(and puzzling) phrase was Anna describing herself as “suffering in a moral sense”, even whilst she attempts to claim the moral high ground for Russia. I’m not sure if the word “moral” was used in a different sense(or perhaps it was mistranslated?), but it seems absurd that external geopolitical developments cause one to suffer morally, which is more internal and introspective. So perhaps it’s a suggestion of her duplicity in attempting to claim the moral high ground in war(where there generally is none) and posturing in support of her emperor whilst secretly being unsettled by the potential horrors of war.
I read her suffering in a moral sense as something more related to domestic/social life. She didn't mention that part during her talk about the war, and right now the war seems too distant for them. It isn't close enough to home for most (maybe even all?) of them to cause moral stress.
This is my first time doing a year of book and excited for it 🙂 Interesting start, Anna Pavlovna seems immature, and we already got a taste of the “war” with their politics discussion 😅 I wonder if we’re gonna meet Anatole and the Princess soon, and if the book’s centered on Anna of the Prince or if they’re just a precursor to the plot. And can’t wait to read this with you all!
I was wondering if this was going to happen all over again. I'm wondering if I have the nerve to try it.
Edit: the link for the podcast doesn't work.
Anna seems to like being at the center of things. One line that stood out was how she will pretend to be animated because that's what people expect of her. I'm sure she loves the idea of being in the middle of marriage negotiations. She also seems like she can be analytical when needed. I'm curious to see if these two sides of her will get her into trouble.
What are your thoughts on Anna Pavlovna?
I like her a lot. I have a feeling she's going to end up being one of my favorites. The best in stories like these are these unscrupulous all up in everyone's business gossip hounds.
What were your first impressions of the novel's setting?
I feel like I'm going to learn a lot more about the war between Napoleonic France and Russia than I have ever wanted to know.
Did you have a favourite line from Chapter One?
But how are you? How are you keeping? I can see I’m intimidating you. Do sit down and talk to me.’
I love this sudden shift of exposition dump into pleasantries. It paints a very clear picture of just the barrage you get at the door of Anna Pavlovna's house the second you step in.
First time reading this book, but I love the Broadway musical “Natasha, Pierre & The Great Comet of 1812” and it inspired me to do this year of war and peace!
I let out a laugh when Anna expressed her disapproval of Anatole - nice to know that he’s as much of a rascal in the books as he is in the musical!
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I was justtt searching “great comet” in this subreddit to see if there were others fans here, and right as you replied to my post, I saw your comment from this past year on someone’s “Balaga” video post haha!
and yes! I can’t wait to come across quotes/lyrics in the book!
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Like it “Seems suddenly to have stopped! Like an arrow piercing the earth!” XD
Gonna do it this year! Still have to read the first chapter, though... Looking forward to reading with y'all!
I used to listen to the podcast while driving home after work. Now... hm.
Looking forward to reading along with you this year! I read the book over the summer and it was instantly a favorite, this is a great way to revisit it without it taking up a solid month of reading time.
I like Anna's character. When I say bitch I mean it in a Meryl Streep type way. She's in control.
Looking forward to meeting the two guests coming to dinner.
Slept in because we celebrated NYE by watching Thin Man movies past midnight, read the first chapter in bed upon waking. Now listening to the podcast with loaded coffee. Look forward to continuing on. Had to restrain myself from reading ahead. I visited St. Petersburg in the 90's. One of the most beautiful cities I've ever seen in my life. Also cold as balls.
(Hello to my Queens neighbors. The one borough where I become lost immediately. Ave. Street, Lane and Road all with the same freakin' name. Crown Heights checking in.)
I'm thinking of going to Russia this summer for my 30th. Whats St. Petersburg like?
It was amazing. If you like architecture it will blow you away. I just had a large breakfast followed by a left-handed cigarette to adjust for las night's g&t's so I can't recall off the top of my head but one of the rulers of Russia decreed the city would become a "modern European city" and of course they completely went overboard with it so every view is a Merchant Ivory set designer's wet dream. Granted this was decades ago but Russians take artists seriously, there were so many underground art spaces (in addition to the established, state-run museums) that I was amazed.
However go in the summer.
A left handed cigarette got me good hahahah.
Thanks for the advice. I wish a pleasant year for you.
Thanks and right back at you. I hope you enjoy your visit to Russia. It's a freaking huge country!
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Might want to consider that this was written 150 years ago and the standards for what constituted "elderlyness" were different.
Checking in to day I’ve read the first chapter, and to thank you all for being on this journey too. I’ll be using you as inspiration to read a chapter a day!
I had a chuckle when Anna describes Napoleon as the Antichrist and says she won’t be friends with anyone who disagrees. The whole paragraph reminds me of talking politics with my mom, which took away a lot of the intimidation factor of reading this famously difficult book. Russian aristocrats- they’re just like us!
I got the sense that maybe Anna was subtly putting herself out there for Vassily/his son's/his friends. She mentioned not having the "weakness" that other old maids do (yet) for getting married. But just by mentioning herself, then later mentioning her "apprenticeship" as an old maid...a couple too many references to her own marriage status while discussing Vassily's son's...
Maybe it's a difference in translations, but I read it as Anna saying that old maids have a weakness for matchmaking. Like, their own time for marriage is long gone so the next best thing is meddling in other people's relationships.
Good point! That makes more sense. I think my translation (PV) said a "mania for marriage" or something.
I'm going to privately journal my thoughts after each chapter. I'll post them here if anyone wants to read....
Tolstoy introduces the society where this book will take place. Its weird, but I feel like all these people are snowed-in to their home. Its warm, cozy, and comfortable, as long as everybody pretends the snow, ice, and wind isn’t just outside their windows. That’s the Russian aristocracy and nobility in my opinion. Happy, but quietly aware of what’s raging just beyond their borders (and even domestically).
So I found this chapter an interesting start and I’ll give my thoughts on these questions. First of all Anna seems to be an aristocrat with connections and loyalty to the Russian royal family. I couldn’t quite understand her connection to the prince though. The setting is at the beginning of the Napoleonic wars as evidenced by Anna’s discussion of various countries and there stance towards Napoleon as well as her comments regarding French loyalists in Russia. Favorite line: “You know I did all a father could for their education, and they have both turned out fools. Hippolyte is at least a quiet fool, but Anatole is an active one. That is the only difference between them.”
I can’t wait to read this! It’s my second read and I love the Audrey Hepburn adaptation. Excited to find out what I missed the first time around.
I am not really sure what I expected, but I feel like I reaaally need to brush up on my French. So much French (and yes, I am reading an English version by Pevear and Volokhonsky).
I got a sample of a couple of translations on my Kindle to try out and like you, did not like the switching from French to English the way it is in P&V . Samples are free and easy to delete. Am trying the Maude version now.
I have the Maude version and no switching, it was very easy to follow.
Intriguing start! It was initially a bit disorienting with the scene just starting but I’m already enjoying the dialogue between characters. Surprisingly easy to read.
So I found the first chapter a bit confusing mainly due to the switching between French and English. Going to persevere in the hope that it will get easier! My initial thoughts of Anna are positive, I like her fieriness and confidence.
Which translation are you reading? I'm reading the Maude translation which just has french words sprinkled in, not entire phrases. Maybe if it gets too cumbersome you could try another translation ?
P&V. At the moment I’m finding it distracting having to look to the bottom of the page for the translation and then back up to find the french, I’m not used to this style of writing so hoping it will become easier the more I read. If not I will definitely buy a different version!
Super excited and slightly nervous to start this reading challenge! I was pleasantly surprised at how the writing style and prose were fairly easy to read. I think it will be hard to keep track of the names, and I was kinda confused on some of the historical issues mentioned.
First timer here, as an avid reader I find it extremely tempting to just read on, but I'm determined to play by the rules, as I think this challenge is going to be an awesome experience.
I'm Italian, and because of that the French parts were rather understandable, but I'm pretty sure that I'll have to write the names down somewhere or else I might forget some.
As for the chapter itself I struggle to express any thoughts about the characters, because I haven't gotten to know them that well yet, but I love the historical-political background, and I can't wait to go on!
Been looking forward to starting this all last month!
Thoughts on Anna? - Anna is blunt and hilarious. I loved how during her dialogue with the Prince she flat out said that she didn’t like his youngest child!
Novel’s setting? - There seemed to be a good deal of political discussion but I didn’t get a great sense of the physical surroundings.
Favorite quote? - “My children are the bane of my existence. It’s the cross I have to bare, that’s how I explain it to myself.” - Prince Vassily
I’m having a difficult time evaluating if the things that bother me about these people are more a product of their aristocratic society or their character.
Anna Pavlovna seems to consider being “boring” the worst of all possible traits. I see how she tries to be cultured (using “la grippe”), humorous (calling herself a “poor invalid”) and a bit impulse and zany so that others like and enjoy her (and so that she enjoys herself “smiling at her impetuosity”). On one hand, she comes across as incredibly superficial with her calculated communication and flattery, but then on the other hand, speaks audaciously about Kuragin’s children, going so far as to say, “why has fate given you two such splendid Children? I don’t speak of Antole, your youngest, I don’t like him.”
Although a creature of habit who seems less animated, Kuragin doesn’t seem any better than Pavlovna. He came to the party specifically to ask about a post for his son, but then asks in a matter of “studied carelessness as if it had only just occurred to him, though the question he was about to ask was the chief motive of his visit.”
It seems like the calculated dance that Kuragin and Pavlovna have in their communication to start would require them to stick to pleasantries; so it’s a bit surprising when they’re both willing to speak about his children like rubbish.
I didn’t read much about the setting yet but I imagine a beautiful palace apartment with gilded trim and many comfy sofas.
I liked the line “he spoke in that refined French in which our grandfathers not only spoke but thought.” Don’t all older generations seem to have this even if not a totally different language...
I also like the line about Hippolyte and Anatole: “Hippolyte is at least a quiet fool, but Anatole is an active one.”
Anna is described as enthusiastic, but she rather seemed overly dramatic to me (for instance when che wrote that she had the flue). I found it interesting that she opely told Vasilij that she doesn't like one of his sons. That's quite rude, but he doesn't seem to be offended, or to disagree. Maybe that's because he needs her social contacts to find a match for his son. Already in the first chapter we can witness the interplay of war and peace. While they are worried about the upcoming war, they quickly switch the subject to the more mundane problem of finding partners for their offspring.
I think the bluntness can be explained by closeness as well, people can be more honest once they know each other well. Although you could be right and it might be that he only takes the harshness in the hopes that he'll benefit in the future.
I hadn't even thought of how relevant the title is to this first conversation, glad you pointed it out : )
My favorite sentence: “Set your friend’s mind at rest,” said he without altering his tone, beneath the politeness and affected sympathy of which indifference and even irony could be discerned.
I’m hoping Anna and I will become great friends. I sense a spark of the kindred spirit in her.
I find it interesting that Anna's "social vocation" is to present an enthusiastic view on any topic, I wonder if maybe she will be used as a social barometer to let the reader know the views held at large?
There's not much to go on yet, I'm looking forward to seeing Anna's remaining guests.
"It shall be on your family's behalf that I start my apprenticeship as an old maid." seemed the most interesting to me, as it added to my feelings of Anna not really having much sincerity.
I've read a few chapters before(ten or so?) but then stopped. I figure this is a great time to start up again!
I'm starting it a little late, it being the 05/01 here, but enjoying things so far! This will be my third attempt at reading War and Peace in the past decade, never made it more than about 1/5 of the way through. I have a paperback Briggs translation but may get it for my kindle as it's quite unwieldly.
Highlight of the first chapter for me was the description of Prince Vasily's manner - he reminds me of some people I know, always obliging conversational partners with the thing they want to hear, but with little sincerity and a touch of weariness.
My first impressions of the novel include a sense of foreboding right from the start. The very first sentence refers to France's annexation of Italian territories:
"Well, Prince, Genoa and Lucca are now nothing but more than estates taken over by the Buonaparte family."
So while Anna Pavlovna and her friends focus on the trivialities of St Petersburg's high society, dark storm clouds are forming and big troubles are coming.
Hello! I’m going to dive into this after a failed attempt a few years ago. Thank you for making it happen!!
Anna Pavlova seems calculating and manipulative, but at this point I think she is using her powers for good. She clearly has some sort of stake in this, and I wonder what it is.
A distinct setting indeed! I think the spoken French is what stands out most to me. Clearly I have much to learn about the Russian aristocracy.
I plan to commit to one chapter per day, and I’m looking forward to the journey!!
I don’t care for her, so far. She seems like an old busybody that would just get on my nerves if I knew her in real life.
I know little if Russian history, so I’m excited to read more about it.
I’m hoping to do a chapter a day. Of course, I also planned to do the Bible in a year. I’m still working in that one and I started in 2021.
Reading War & Peace for the first time, hopefully I will be able to follow one chapter a day. Anna seems like your stereotypical overly-chatty maid, I will have read a few more chapters before commenting on whether I like her or not. I love the russian-court setting, but the number of names mentioned just in this chapter alone makes me a bit worried.
Oh man I adore Anna. Coming to War and Peace from Natasha, Pierre, and the Great Comet of 1812, I too hate Anatole and so immediately related to Anna. I’m excited to see more of her.
She is very interesting and I like her, especially her quick wit in responses.
Seems strange but appropriate
i hope to do so?
Hello! I’m a few days late to the game as I had completely forgotten that I wanted to participate this year, but luckily I saw one of the daily posts on my feed so I’m quickly catching up :)
I like her alright. I think she might be more calculating than we think, definitely not your average gossip.
As many others I’m not familiar with Russian history at all, but I have read my fair share of British literature set in this period so I’m curious to see how it compares.
I should have caught up before the end of the week, after that I’m planning on reading one chapter a day. Although I’m quite sure I will miss a day here or there, but at this pace catching up shouldn’t pose too big a problem.
First off, glad I found this sub. I tried this project 4 or 5 years ago and fell off the wagon in mid April. Hopefully this sub and discussion will hold me more accountable.
Since I’ve already read a portion of the book, I’m already somewhat familiar with these two characters. But my initial impression of them now is the same as it was when I first read it - they are two vane and shallow people.
Hi everyone! I am a couple days late to this reading, but I am so excited to be here! This is my first time doing "A Year of _" and I am delighted that I am starting with War and Peace. I love that the chapters are so short, it gives me the confidence that I can in fact read this book.
I loved the way Anna Pavlovna and the Count talked about the kids
"I often think how unfairly sometimes the joys of life are distributed. Why has fate given you two such splendid children? I don’t speak of Anatole, your youngest. I don’t like him,”
“You know I did all a father could for their education, and they have both turned out fools. Hippolyte is at least a quiet fool, but Anatole is an active one. That is the only difference between them."
But I particularly loved this description of both their personalities.
Prince Vasíli always spoke languidly, like an actor repeating a stale part. Anna Pávlovna Schérer on the contrary, despite her forty years, overflowed with animation and impulsiveness. To be an enthusiast had become her social vocation and, sometimes even when she did not feel like it, she became enthusiastic in order not to disappoint the expectations of those who knew her.
I think they are both quite interesting characters! And I can't wait to meet the "fools" and the "unhappy princess" in the later chapters!
Got here a bit late, as this year has been off to a bumpy start. It's my first time doing "A Year of..." kind of reading, and I have high hopes for it.
The part that stood out the most for me on this chapter was the conversation about the Count's kids:
"What can I do about it?", he said at last. "You know I did everything in a father's power for their education, and they both have turned out des imbéciles . Hippolyte is at least a quiet fool, but Anatole's a fool that won't keep quiet.
The fact that he used French to call them stupid was inexplicably funny to me.
Happy new year!
I see Anna like an all-knowing middle-aged woman, very intelligent, well-spoken and commanding. She also seems like a woman who is revered as well, based on her interactions with Prince Vasíli. I also really like that she is religious even going as far as using the Hydra from the book of Psalm to describe the threat of their time.
It is interesting hearing the two (more so Anna) discuss the state of the world. I look forward to learning more about the societal norms of their time.
My favorite lines come from Prince Vasíli’s response to Anna about his kids: “I am your faithful slave and to you alone I can confess that my children are the bane of my life. It is the cross I have to bear. That is how I explain it to myself.” It sounds ridiculous to me but I would hope to learn more about why he believes so outside of what was said to us in this chapter.
First time reading—started right before bed. I’m going to jot down my thoughts here quickly before I have the chance to read others discussions for my own accountability. (I may participate in discussions of this chapter tomorrow? I’ll have to see as we go what my sweet spot is for reading).
I like Anna Pavlovna. I think she has a very interesting position in this society, as a noble and as a woman surrounded by people involved in politics (including her Empress). She seems very comfortable in her role, the way she is outspoken and the way switches between French and Russian exudes confidence within her societal class. Her confidence in her role extends to her confidence in Russia as a nation. She gets in her little monologue before she can decide that she’s done speaking of politics and it makes me think that she is the sort of woman who has made up her mind about the way the world is and isn’t looking for meaningful dialogue or a perspective shift. It’s also worth noting the way she dominates a room and dictates where the conversation is going.
I don’t have that many impressions on the novels setting off the bat. I think it’s interesting that we are seeing this from the perspective of the comfortable upperclass as opposed to, say, a struggling lowerclass community. The heavy emphasis on Russian people adopting French language and customs isn’t lost on me as the characters discuss conflict with France.
“If they had known that you wished it, the entertainment would have been put off.” This is funny to me, you can tell the Prince is a bit tired of Anna’s outspoken ways.
I'm delighted to embark on this challenge; the writing is immediately impressive. I partly dislike the French—and this might be an issue with my copy only, perhaps, but I have to keep reading footnotes throughout the chapter because tad bits of French are not translated. I understand it's there for a purpose, from a writer's perspective, but it damn does make the reading slower!
Same as with my edition, I do have an english edition with the French translated instead of footnoted. I do enjoy it, its feels even more foreign.
I do know a bit of French, so it's a bit less of putting.
She reminds me of that family member that everyone loves to talk to because she has all the gossip, but you don’t want her knowing anything about you. Personally, I love a gossip so I’m definitely liking her.
I’ve attempted this challenge a few times, never getting past Book 2 so I can’t remember what my first impressions were, and I don’t really feel like I have any now.
”Why has fate given you two such splendid children? I don’t speak of Anatole, your youngest. I don’t like him.” - This line made me laugh a lot. I just love the bluntness of it, but again, it’s something I could definitely see that gossipy family member say
First impression: funnier and more entertaining than I expected. I am going in with few preconceptions, and little knowledge of the history.
I think I would probably find Anna annoying in real life, but I’m looking forward to seeing how she navigates through things. The Prince also seems annoying, in an amusing way to read about: maybe I’m just irritable!
I'll chime in on the setting - I've come from three years at r/ayearofmiddlemarch and the contrast is so interesting to me. There's so much implied opulence! (I do think one thing I'll have to refer to notes a lot regarding is how many 'royal highnesses' could come up in this book) It throws the nervous references to revolutionary movements into sharp focus.
happy new year! I have to say that I am Russian, a 27f, but I haven't to this day ever read the book! so, I started reading the War and Peace at the end of December and already reached chapter 17, wow
so far, I really love how the author keeps reminding the reader connections between numerous characters throughout the book. I feel, this is a great trait of him because I wouldn't usually see this happening in other big works.
I liked Anna Pavlovna, but she looks a bit too concentrated on the form (they way people talk) instead of the substance (what they talk about). on the other hand, it's probably the way everyone behaved back then when the major task of the aristocracy was entertaining.
at first I was daunted by the size of my volume but to be honest, it reads very easily and is massively captivating. plus, I have quite a good level of french, so I am really glad that I get to have practice while enjoying the book haha
In Chapter 2, Pierre is boorishly rude to Anna pavlovna’s elderly aunt. It’s the sort of behavior one must outgrow quickly.
Found this halfway through last year but thought I would wait for a new round to join in, so excited!
I quite like Anna Pavlovna so far, although she seems to have nothing else to do other than putting her nose in other people's business. Not having read any details about the story, I have the feeling she might play an important role driving the story forwards. She appears like a very opinionated person and gives the impression that she is in a position that allows her to do and say whatever she want, but at the same time I feel like none of what she is saying might have been considered an "unpopular opinion". It is all part of her game and keeping up her appearence of being enthusiastic , as she is described in the text.
I like how straight forward she is, and my favorite line was probably her "I don't speak of Anatole, your youngest. I don't like him". It made me laugh, but it was also interesting how she managed to guide the conversation away from an uncomfortable topic just to immediately criticize this man's family. She is clearly skilled when it comes to socializing, and so I was surprised that she brought this up at first, but clearly she knows things and I don't believe she would have said that if she hadn't known that Vasili was unhappy with Anatole. The option of marriage is brought up very casually, but I believe this was very intentional on Anna Pavlovna's part, the same way Prince Vasili tried to disguise his question about Baron Funke as casual conversation.
As for the setting, I don't know have many thoughts yet, but I am excited to find out more.
Late to posting, although on track with the reading schedule. My overall first impression of this, not knowing almost anything about the book or the author (other than it's a classic) is that it reads much like Pride and Prejudice although it could be that way because I read it in the past year. I do think, though, some similarities come from writing facial expressions, gestures, inner motivation, and heavy dialogue base. I had to read the Chapter twice to get adjusted to the writing style, much like I did with Pride and Prejudice.
1.What are your thoughts on Anna Pavlona?
My initial impression was that I liked her, she was quick witted and new herself and her position (and that she does it well). Although she appears to always be enthusiastic and lively, that doesn't mean she always wants to be, "To be an enthusiast had become her social vocation and, sometimes even when she did not feel like it, she became enthusiastic in order not to disappoint the expectations of those who knew her." It also gave me the impression that she cares about other peoples opinions to the point that she forces herself to keep that perma-smile. I'm on the fence now about whether I like her or not. She appears to need to be in peoples business but at the same time society has accepted and expects it of her.
Honestly my first impression was super confused by being thrown into a conversation where you don't really know who is talking to who. I liked it in the end though, because as the chapter goes on it doesn't dilly dally with getting to who is who and what they're like. I'm excited to learn more about the historical background from other Defenders, since I know absolutely nothing. I'm also looking forward to seeing how this soiree pans out.
"'This famous Prussian neutrality is a trap. I have faith only in God and the lofty destiny of our adored monarch. He will save Europe!' She suddenly paused, smiling at her own impetuosity."
Second favorite: "Hippolyte is at least a quiet fool, but Anatole is an active one."
This book is so long you don’t need a backstory on the characters. You can learn everything you need to just by observing them interact.
Oops, I am late to posting, but I am so glad to join in this year. I've started W&P about 3-4 times in the past and never made it very far. I think going small chapter by small chapter and engaging with you all will make this much easier!
I was very struck by the opening as it's quite interesting to just be dropped into the middle of a conversation. But, it was certainly interesting and you can tell that it's setting up some major plot points to come. I adore Anna so far, she's that bored busybody that is so delightful in books but you can't stand in real life. She seems like a character that's going to make shit happen.
As for the setting, I am woefully not well-versed in Russian history so I will read some of the articles linked here to get a better idea of the time frame. So far all I've discerned is that we're mingling among the high society - the kinds of people that back in the day didn't have to work and spent copious amounts of time in parlors discussing the affairs of their neighbors, friends and government.
My favorite line was the last one - I couldn't tell if Anna was resigning herself to being the "old maid matchmaker" or if she was secretly delighted by it. I look forward to finding out.
Happy 2021 everyone!
Hi everyone! I'm a first time reader and I'm really excited to do this! I hope I can make it through :))
One thing that bothered me in the book was Tolstoy describing Anna Pavlovna performing an action " with the womanly and courtier-like quickness and tact habitual to her..." Admittedly I don't know a ton about Tolstoy; is he sexist? Obviously this was written back in the 19th century when people as a whole were more sexist...But it's gonna be a lot more difficult for me to get through this if I'm worried about the character of the author throughout the whole thing. I'm hoping his female characters are just as fleshed-out and real as his male characters: no tropes here! I really hope Tolstoy didn't succumb to the characterization of women as the "other" (as Beauvoir put it) and made male the standard default. That said, even many modern books do this, so it's not like the book has to be explicitly feminist...I'm just hoping it's not sexist, either. Any veterans able to weigh in on this?
Final note: I took APUSH a few years ago, but other than that my history knowledge all around is greatly lacking. I know this isn't a "historical" novel, but I'm very much one who likes to understand what's going on--there were a lot of references to generals, army movements and such, that I didn't fully understand. Are there any good resources that help with this? Or would y'all say it's not super important to understanding the book fundamentally?
Also, is Napoleon supposed to be evil in the eyes of the Russians? I never really learned anything bad about him, just that he was the French ruler during the French Revolution(?)
Looking forward to this year with yall!! :))
Oh it's definitely a historical novel, I recommend these wikipedia pages on the War of the Third Coalition and the French Invasion of Russia . I'd even go so far as to say that it's more of a historical novel than anything else, and I recommend keeping that in mind when Tolstoy drops his characters from his chapters completely at multiple points in the book to focus on his theory of history,
I wouldn't call it sexist per se, but there's a lot of elements that could be interpreted as sexist if thought is given only to them and not Tolstoy's wider philosophy, which will be revealed as the story goes on.
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Yep! Well at least in the modern transliteration as the spelling has changed somewhat since it's been published
Nice. We were just at SkyView two weeks ago. Out there frequently during Mets season too.
They are honest in conversation in a way that I really appreciate. I have always hated how it's not appropriate to talk about sex, politics, religion, and money, which are the funest things to talk about. It's like our society has a ban on interesting topics. I despise small talk and talking about the weather makes me want to die. Russian high society isn't like that. They just launch into important, heavy issues immediately as soon as they have met someone and they all know something about the political issues of the day. It's impressive. They also all seem to speak multiple languages, which is annoying because I feel like I am missing out on 20% of the book by not speaking French.
I would describe Anna as prissy or priggish. I do not like her as I don't like people who demand that everything be polite and socially acceptable all of the time. When there is a real conversation that gets into the meat of a topic, she wants to shut it down. I did find it funny that she kept saying to Pierre "are you sure you don't want to go over and sit at that table over there?" She's controlling and needs to make sure every conversation is going the way she wants it to go all of the time? Sounds exhausting and kind of narcissistic.
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The French thing is super annoying. I just wish it could be translated. I mean, why not?
Yeah, the insulting his son thing was jarring because it would never happen in American society. You can't just shit on people's children. It was kind of refreshing in a way though because it was an honest discourse we don't see. We should be able to just say "your son is a total shit show" and laugh about it. I find American society's obsession with politeness all of the time to be repressive. Russian society (at least in the 1800s) was infinitely more honest.
Knowing little to nothing of this time period, I was surprised to find French such a fashionable culture for these Russians - especially with Napoleon rolling his way through Europe? I'll definitely need to read more about the historical context here, or I'll be drowning in a few days...
I'm enjoying this so far. I was worried I'd be overwhelmed, as I often am with translated works and heavily political historical stuff, but so far I think I'm following pretty well, and these discussion threads will no doubt help me keep tabs on what's going on if I get confused. All the names are probably going to cause an issue with my brain, and also maybe the fact that I have no knowledge of Napoleon other than him being short.
The names can drive one mad! I sometimes write myself little character name notes so I can follow. I think everyone here will be helpful to one another.
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She is the "...maid of honor and favourite of Empress Marya Fyodorovna". In other words, she is a close (if not best) friend of the Empress of Russia.
We have not yet been given insight into the history of the relationship between Anna and Prince Vasili. They seem to be connected by means of the noble social milieu of which they are a part.
In war and politics, it's always convenient to characterize opposing sides as villains. "You're either with us, or against us". For Anna and other members of high society who have alot of influence and power at stake, it might be easier for them to buy into that narrative. It might also be an indication that the narrator is biased?
My wife and I decided to participate, she asked me to read the first chapter out loud. Big mistake for someone who hasn't read anything out loud in a while and hasn't spoken french in years. It was painful.
I think I'm ready to party with Anatole.
Anna Pavlovna as the "enthusiast"... omg, kill me. In a word? Extra. I know people like that and I don't usually want to be around them.
Napoleon as Anti-Christ? Just depends on your point of view, I guess. If you're a Russian around this time, yeah, of course. But what if you're French? He's Michael Jordan combined with Abraham Lincoln, I expect.
This is the second time around trying to read this book. Already feel like this one is the one! Yay Day one.
Anna seems like quite a divisive character for a lot. Though I understand she's from the class Tolstoy was not too fond of, and in general, she seems to exude that soap opera grandeur, she's quite charismatic and it seems hard to not fall into her charms. Tolstoy sets us up right from the start with a ping pong of ideas and customs and lets us see the charms and pitfall of the bourgeois society at the time.
Other than the first paragraph being well... something, I like this first chapter. Short, but only a few pages in I feel like Tolstoy has managed to clearly establish multiple layers to both Anna Pavlovanas and Prince Vasilys respective character.
Ok this is weird, i had a lot of fun reading this.
The only thing i fear is that there will be too many names and i will have to go back and re-read a lot.
Hi All,
I wanted to say that this will be my second attempt at W&P. I started this last year and around mid-July I fell behind so far that I decided to start again this year. I look forward to this journey again in 2019.
1) I don't know much about Russian high society but these characters feel like they could be the stereotype on which high society is based.
Middle-aged child. I love her
This really drives home the fact that I know very little about this time in history.
Was I the only person wondering what Vasily's head scent smells like? My guess would be a nice lavender... Thoughts?!?
"He went up to Anna Pavlovna, kissed her hand, presenting to her his bald, scented, and shining head, and complacently seated himself on the sofa."
Russian high society seems to be a constant jockeying of position and wittiness along with playing an intricate game of who's who trying to remember who every single prince and princess is and if they are important/related to someone of prominence. Anna Pavlovana in a word: sagacious.
I think to these people, Napoleon is the anti-Christ or the harbinger of Doom upon what they thought was the most civilized society of France bringing destruction to their doorstep.
A little late - I am catching up on the chapters tonight but wanted to stop and read the discussion posts after every chapter. I loved the introductory chapter - it definitely kept my attention and these two characters were a great way to start out: funny, intriguing and allowed for Tolstoy to introduce more characters second hand since Pavlovna is such a gossip. Also, love the inclination that both the characters are ingenuine - sets up the feel for the overall aristocracy. The discussion post also helped me to understand a couple of paragraphs a bit better like Pavlovna's rant in the beginning! Excited to keep reading :)
Favorite Line: "Ippolit is at least a quiet fool, while Anatole's a fool that won't keep quiet, that's the only difference."
I started a little late but better late than never!
What are your thoughts on Russian high society?
They sound weary, bored and put out - like there's nothing to do but watch and complain
Who is Anna Pavlovana and do you like her character? Anna is a maid of honor to the Empress Marya Fedorovna. She's nosy, a bit know it all and chooses her words carefully in some moments and gushes in others. Maybe a bit mercurial
Describe her personality in a word. : Busybody
Is it fair to describe Napoleon as an "anti-Christ"? : He's taking over Europe and causing war all over, in this context it may be fair since they are seeing the world they know being conquered. And the countries involved feel powerless
The first part of the chapter was a bit confusing with all of the names thrown at us but I got more comfortable with it as I went along. Novels setting sounds cool what it with all the royalty going here and there.
This hydra comment is very applicable to the current political moment. We cut off a head , two more a most definitely going to grow back in Iran
Finally got around to starting into this! I meant to do this last year, to the point that my mother gifted me a copy of the Oxford translation (which I believe is a modified version of the Maude translation though I'm not entirely sure). Inevitably I procrastinated on it and didn't start it. This year, I procrastinated as well but hope to get caught up soon! I tend to read mostly historical non-fiction, and this is my attempt to tackle a classic novel that I hope will find some commonality with what I usually engage in. Also, I am a big fan of the musical "The Great Comet of 1812" so that's helped to spark my interest in the book.
My copy contained a 20 page introduction which helped me get a grasp on how Tolstoy writes as well as the political setting he was writing in. I think I will come to greatly enjoy this, as he seems to be fascinated with the same parts of history I am: the minute details and stories of ordinary people amidst great events, the micro rather than the macro. And right off the bat something about the setting feels oddly comforting. I was afraid of getting into this largely because I was uncertain I would be able to engage with characters in an environment I am so unfamiliar with. And yet, I immediately found a familiarity within the description of Prince Vasili "the prince, who, like a wound-up clock, by force of habit said things he did not even wish to be believed". That rapid fire, spontaneous, nearly careless manner of speaking is something I can very much relate to, and something about that line helped me find enough of a common ground to quickly settle into the dialogue. I'm intrigued by how blunt Anna can be, particularly when talking about Vasili's son. Yet at the same time she seems bound by social rules to not speak allow ill talk of anything regarding the Empress. I am curious to see where she continues to be unreserved and where she chooses to hold her tongue going forward. Excited for this! Hopefully I can catch up quickly.
I personally liked the way Tolstoy has vividly described each of the characters introduced through their actions and reactions to the situation given at hand. I felt that the style of writing 'shows' more than telling. Especially the part where Prince Hippolyte tries to break up the tension with his substandard sense of humour. The way Tolstoy writes it made it very real and easy to picturise and therefore very easy to get into. Humor me if im getting anything wromg, but this is something i observed and thought it would be nice to share.
Happy New Year! This is my first time doing something like this and I’m super excited to get started.
1) I think I haven’t read enough to make a decision on Anna Pavlova, but I am super interested to see where her character goes.
2) I don’t really know a lot about this setting, so I’m excited to learn more. It definitely feel like there’s a lot of turmoil and threats surrounding the characters.
3) I am planning to read a chapter a day. Hopefully I’ll be able to stay on track.
Hi everyone! This is my second attempt at reading War and Peace. It was really hard to navigate the first time around, and I only got a few chapters through, so hopefully with the discussions, I'll be able to finish the book with all of you!
I just escaped my talkative and blunt aunts over the holidays, only to meet one here in Anna Scherer lol! She's quite funny though, and likeable
Like others here, I know almost nothing about the Napoleonic wars, but hopefully I can learn more along the way!
I'm aiming for a chapter a day
Hello y'all :)
War and Peace was on my to-do list for a bit of time and I finally decided to read it this year - I just bought the book. Two years ago I did a year of Anna Karenina, but after that I needed I little break from Tolstoi. I love that this subreddit is starting a new yearof round where i can join in.
1.) Anna seems to be a person who is good in talking, in reading situations and in pulling strings in the background. My first impression is quite neutral, I don't have any strong emotions towards her.
2.) I like that the book starts directly into the plot/scenery without a big introduction.
3.) I plan to read a chapter a day - but knowing me there will be times when I will fall behind and (hopefully) catch up again. My goal is somehow finish this book with you by end of the year
Going into this completely blind! I've never read War and Peace but it's been on my tbr for years. Excited to get started!
Thanks to the mods for putting this together!
Hello,
Not sure about her. She seems like a good ally to have but it could be easy to get on her bad side and difficult to regain her good grace.
Not to familiar wit Russian history. I keep picturing a very French setting.
I plan on a chapter a day.
It’s so hard to like these people considering, you know, all the people they own as part of slavery with extra steps.
I rather like this chapter. I am confused as to the purpose of switching into french, although my guess is that the words in French are seperated from those in Russian (or translted into English) for some reason or another. I love the moment where Vassily complements Anna's eloquence and then demands a cup of tea. The buttering up of someone who can do something for him jaxtaposed with the crassness of asking for tea makes me chuckle.
Podcast for this chapter: https://ayearofwarandpeace.podbean.com/e/001-book-1-chapter-1-war-peace-audiobook-and-discussion/
Did anyone understand who Anna Pavlovna's patron is? No one seems to know so I assume not an important character...
Her patron is the Emperor's mother. The importance is the connection to the Emperor.
Oh cool! Thank you!
Looking forward to reading this again this year. I read it, partly with this subreddit, in 2020 with the paperback of Pevear and Volokhonsky, and this year I am reading the ePub of Maude ( StandardeBooks.org version). Good to see a couple familiar names! Looking forward to digging into this with old and new friends.
Given what I know of the story and characters (and no I won't spoil anything), the line that stood out in this reading is Prince Vasili saying, "She is rich and of good family and that's all I want."
I’m new here and a little late but catching up!
Anna seems like a character who puts on a happy face for others but is quite sad inside. “As she pronounced the name of the Empress, her face took on an expression of profound and sincere devotion mixed with respect and tinged with sadness.” She also says “can any sensitive person find peace of mind nowadays?” Also, she is very pro Russia going to war against Napoleon as evidenced by the opening paragraph. Very curious to see how her thoughts of war progress.
I loved the opening paragraph. Sets the tone for a pro war fervor that maybe be happening at the time.
“I often think that good fortune in life is sometimes distributed most unfairly.” My favorite quote in chapter 1. Totally agree with Anna here lol
Aha! Hellooooo everyone! (Using a time machine here since I'm starting April 23rd) Seems like we've all decided to embark on this mammoth of world literature.
1st chapter, starting strong! So far, so good. Feels like it's confirming what others have said about it so far, it's very very long, but not dense. Dostoevsky is denser!
Anna - a shrewd lady, but I wonder if she'll be a prominent character for the rest of the story. Characters in chapter 1 of a long ass book aren't usually the main characters, obviously. Nice chapter to ease into the rest of the story.
They've described Napoleon as the Anti-Christ. I wonder if that's why Nietzsche - admirer of Napoleon - likes to call himself the Anti-Christ.
Excited for this one. I hope I can keep track of all the characters tho, I should take notes on a Word doc but I kinda cba
I imagine her as a posh aunt—very theatrical and a bit drama-fueled, but generally good-hearted.
The novel’s setting reminds me a bit of current-day events. It’s set in the midst of war and political turmoil. People are trying to maintain their normal lives by throwing parties, talking about kids, weddings, future plans, etc. But the overall vibe seems to be tense.
I enjoyed the “kids” talk, but the last sentence from Anna Pavlovna made me giggle (that might be due to the translation into Lithuanian, though): “Ce sera dans votre famille que je ferai mon apprentissage de vieille fille.”
It also reminds me of my aunts and grannies who try to matchmake for family kids. Mildly uncomfortable? Yes. Hilarious? Always.
Happy New Year!!
I already like her. She knows the power she holds in her position and is will to use to use it to help a friend out. I like that about her.
It feels familiar. Like in Anna Karenina<span class="md-spoiler-text">the book also starts out with characters who's names I couldn't pronounce, politics I'm not entirely familiar with (I don't know much about Russia's involvement with Napoleon's rise and fall. ), and the promise of a party.</span>
The last line: "It shall be on your family's behalf that I start my apprenticeship as an old maid." I thought it really sweet of Anna Pavlovna to agree to help Vasily to marry off his son.
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why would you bother sharing this
"My children are the bane of my life."
Can't wait to meet them.